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DPack

The best advice I can offer to newer players

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Watch the WSOP 2016 final table coverage on youtube.

No, seriously, just watch it. I've been doing that the past few days. Even though I don't feel like I've learned very much (if anything), my game has noticeably improved. I haven't walked away from a table without profit for 3 days now.

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I think this is great advice.  I played poker casually for years, but decided I needed to improve about 3-5 years ago.  And so I read and I watched a LOT of poker.  It is probably one of the absolute best things you can do to improve your game.  (Also to research the things that come up while you watch that you don't quite understand.)

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I believe one should be very careful with this advice.  While watching any tournament or a lot of poker can be both beneficial and provide learning experience.  Just keep  a few things in mind.  The the wsop is a no limit game to the limit hold em that is being played here. These are vastly different animals.  Thus the strategies are very different.

 In limit pokem the strategy comes not only from understading the math, pot odds, and expected value.  vast majority of players will sit on their hands and wait to see the turn or the river.  You don't see as much pre flop aggression because people want to see more correct plays vs incorrect plays to gain value. Risk vs. Reward.  You will see people taking fewer chances, checking way too much  and only betting maybe 3 to 4x the big blind or raise.  Why? Because in limit you pretty much know how your opponet will bet on each street.

No limit there is far more "gray areas" which requires far more skill to play.  Reading of both your opponet, having far more courage,  being more aggressive, and far more manipulative.  Where limit you make money in the long run in show downs, it's quite oppsite in no limit. Where the money you make is less about the cards and knowing your opponents weakness and trying to manipulate them them out of showdowns.  Some examples of this watch the tournaments or youtube video's of players who study their opponents more than the cards to figure out what there weakness are.  There are some pretty funny "tilted" moments when they get it wrong.  Phil Hellmuth anyone.  

Anywho in no limit players try to manipulate the pot far more to prevent players to preceding into draws compared to the implied odds in limit. Stack sizes also come into play far more in no limit than limit.  There are far fewer ways to protect your hand in no limit.  Think about it as first sitting down here lets say a 5k table and seeing someone already sitting there with 100k.  Most players just up and leave to find a new table. Look at it another way.  In no limit if i'm holding AA i can instantly bet 20x the big blind or larger to get people to fold and not go in on the draw.  In limit that is set at first. So you may only be able to max raise 1k, 2k or 5k.  So maller hands in limit hold far more worth then they do in no limit. 

Finally remember my last two points.  They are playing with real money as opposed to just chips.  So people will go all in here on total garbage or head into draws no matter what they have.  They are also not playing online,  hence no algorithms to deal with.  Lastly notice when less players get eliminated they reaming players,  4 or less,  become far more concerned with their pot size and you suddenly start hearing the announcers making not of blinds.  (Thomas only has 5 big blinds left, he has to make a move here.) That is when watching things like the WSOP final table really gets fun cause they start taking chances on more and more hands doing nothing more than trying to out manipulate each other..   

 

Quote

 

 

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It's important to remember that pro-circuit strategies generally work better on people who adhere to that logic.

Nothing you see in TWSoP is gonna prepare you for the shit you'll encounter with the Prominence community.

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I've heard it said that you only need to play one level above your opponent.  So if you're capable of level 3 play, you can dumb it down to level 2 play to outdo a level 1.  And there's nothing wrong with resorting to ABC poker to win if that's the best strategy against a certain player.  BUT knowledge is power whether you use it or not and being more informed can only make you more successful.

I won't disagree that playing Prominence is different than playing live poker.  You will run into scenarios quite unlike those you see regularly on big tournaments like the WSOP main (mostly became people don't know better), BUT being more knowledgeable than your opponent is never a bad thing.

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1 hour ago, BedsideFungus89 said:

You do realize that the Prominence games (both ring games and tournaments) are all no-limit, yes?

 It's fixed sytem with two blinds only 3 have limited options. Here are 3 pre flop examples.   At the 100 table you can only go 20/40 or all in,  at the 1k table you can only go 100/200/All In,  At the 5k table you can only go what is it from memory,  500/1k/All in..   You can't set any betting amount unless someone raises. 

 Looks like a limited system to me...  which is what makes sammy's advice also correct..  

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11 minutes ago, Thomasnut said:

 which is what makes sammy's advice also correct..  

A sure fire way to know your argument has imloded is when you're quoting me to make your point.

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3 minutes ago, Thomasnut said:

Or you just mistake simple kindness.  I don't know why i bother,  these people are nothing but rude...  

I don't believe I'm being rude.  

You said that Prominence is limit poker, I'm merely pointing out that it is no-limit poker.  If I were being rude, I would have said that the reason why you keep losing money is probably because you don't even know the difference between limit and no-limit poker.  Or I would have called you a liar for saying that you've never seen a side pot in a live game (which is, let's face it, ridiculous).

Blame the algorithm all you want to, but if you're playing well you should still be coming out ahead over the long term.

You can post whatever you want on this forum, but when you post misinformation you should expect to be corrected.  I would hate for some poor hapless soul to read your advice and assume that it is correct.  

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I'm not getting into a pissing contest over symantics. Pot Limit is just that, a limited version and not a true no limit game. My advice thus holds true and both you and sammy have been rude not only in this post but several others. I may have not known one aspect of the game because we around here have always played straight up poker and not relied on a rule to be exploited in the sole purpose of saving our arse. I do blame the algorithm when you see successive cards that should appear at the table less then 1% of the time being dealt out over and over.  

I posted my night at the tables post with these hands played out exactly one hand after another.  I get many psn messages on a daily basis from people thanking me for bringing up the subject cause they have had the exact same thing occur to them over and over again. I simply say thank you and go share your experience so this can get fixed.  They don't want to because they don't want to get attacked as i have. I have encourged some of my online line friends to play the game. My real good friends from scotland, wales and england lasted a singe day cause they depise the system.  

So i'm done with posting and trying to help people on these forums..  I don't see you, sammy or anyone else posting in similiar fashion to prove me otherwise. I have also stated that i was slightly wrong and the algorithm and only causes a problem cause these are 6 player tables. The sole reason for micro transactions. I have been playing on many other sites now, both with 6 player and full ring tables.  One being ps which is considered to have the best algorithm of any site and i have never run into the same problem here.

 With that being said i'm all done returning to these forums. I'll leave it to you "experts" to be rude to someone else..  Fan boys will be fan boys.  I honestly got to say i've never been treated as poorly on other forums as i have this one..  So it's all yours gentlemen.. Have at it.

 

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2 hours ago, Thomasnut said:

 It's fixed sytem with two blinds only 3 have limited options. Here are 3 pre flop examples.   At the 100 table you can only go 20/40 or all in,  at the 1k table you can only go 100/200/All In,  At the 5k table you can only go what is it from memory,  500/1k/All in..   You can't set any betting amount unless someone raises. 

 Looks like a limited system to me...  which is what makes sammy's advice also correct..  

Pro Tip: You can use LB/RB on xbox or L1/R1 on playstation (I'm guessing) to raise and lower the betting range.

You can only go all-in in no limit poker. if PP was limit poker, it would not have an all-in option.

Disagreeing with someone is not rude. Acting offended just because someone disagreed with you is.

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I learned the most when I watched season 5 and 6 of High Stakes poker.  The level of the players and Gabe Kaplan's analysis gave me an insight into why the players did what they did.  One can learn how they used position, how they played various flop textures  and put  each other on ranges.  The main difference is they play 250-500 big blinds deep, so real deep stack poker, while on Prominence we play 100bb to start (lets add deep stack!).  But still you can apply a lot of what you learn to the game (slight adjustments, but fundamentals are the same).

Also the Directors cut versions of Poker After Dark, where you hear the players give their thoughts on certain hands that were played.  I'd  look for the ones with Tom Dwan on there.  Hearing his thoughts is like going to poker university and hearing a lecture.

So yeah if one wants to get better at ring games, the shows I mentioned and any new cash games going on are what I would watch.

Edited by Squid
grammar

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On 11/8/2016 at 8:08 PM, Thomasnut said:

I'm not getting into a pissing contest over symantics.

lmfao, this was one of the funniest interactions I've ever seen... the dude literally doesn't know the difference between limit and no-limit (lmao, max buy in size = limit poker?  roflmao) and he's going on about how the game is cheating him?

This dude is cracking me up!

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Plus...

Once they finish watching the video suggest that they rewind (or refresh?) and watch it all over again. Poker is one of those games that no matter how much you study or analyze it you never know everything about it. Scratch that. You may know everything, but you don't know all of the ways to utilize that knowledge.

No matter how terrific I get at making homemade pizzas (Papa John's eat your heart out) I still look out for those special spices people thrown in or learning their means of kneading the pizza dough. The same can be said for poker. Never stop learning. Poker involves a lot of math, a lot of decision making, and a lot of concentration, etc. Man, I love this game.

Edited by PokerWhisperer81
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On 11/30/2016 at 5:09 PM, v0lum3 said:

lmfao, this was one of the funniest interactions I've ever seen... the dude literally doesn't know the difference between limit and no-limit (lmao, max buy in size = limit poker?  roflmao) and he's going on about how the game is cheating him?

This dude is cracking me up!

Actually that is far from the truth and the very reason i stopped coming to post on these boards.  I know the difference all to well as indicated in my original reply.  I indicated several differences between the two versions of the games.  The major difference being implied odd's in pot limit and pot odds in no limit.  Make no mistake there are huge differences in the games and the strategies used to play. Perfect example is Phil Ivey since this post is dedicated to watching real poker tourny's, etc.  Why do you think every bracelet Phil Ivey has one,  10 of them, have been in every other version of poker except no limit. He is considered the greatest poker player in the world by many but has yet to win a single bracelt in no limit hold em.

 It's the very reason a great no limit player can and will very often get chewed up in pot limit and vice verca.  As i stated here and many other posts players in pot limit will stay in far more often on garbage hands and are willing to play all the way to the river and/or gamble on horrible hands to get lucky on the draw.

 If you actually take the original posters advice and watch no limit videos,  tournments etc you see the final hand always coming down to just two people.  Everyone else usually folds preflop, you rarely see more than two players going to head to head into 3 bets.  Most players just fold preflop once the intial bet is made.  In pot limit you, espeically in prominece you often see three people or more always 3 betting or calling. Or worse they just all sit around checking to the turn or even some cases river before someone finally bets.  They have no idea how to use blocker bets or bet for value.  Their betting is not consitant.  They suddenly go from betting 1 k preflop to 20k once they think they have the hand won with several others all calling because they were allowed to come along for the ride to the river. Then someone usually ends up losing big. 

 The problem here is a select few people just wanted to take whatever they want out of my post(s) instead of reading it in its entirity noting everythig i said..  Then use it to make personal attacks..   There is one thing i admitted to and it's the truth.. I knew nothing about side pots which is the god's honest truth.  So if you want to attack me on something use that.  

 Other wise make no mistake there is a huge difference between the two games and strategies invovled.  All my posts have gone towards helping people even with the one mistake i made about side pots.. Notice the people that attacked me on here didn't cite one word, comment, sentence or statement i made about the two different strategies involved..  They just instantly attacked me by saying the same thing you just did..

Just remember there are no micro transactions in the real world to rebuy every time you bust out or buy your way to the top. Not sure about x box but the person in 1st place on ps4 has 52 million.. the person in 2nd only has 8.  Think they got there in just 3 months by not spending hard earned cash...

 

 

 

   

   Enough said.

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On 12/4/2016 at 11:52 PM, Thomasnut said:

 

Just remember there are no micro transactions in the real world to rebuy every time you bust out or buy your way to the top. Not sure about x box but the person in 1st place on ps4 has 52 million.. the person in 2nd only has 8.  Think they got there in just 3 months by not spending hard earned cash...

Actually, the reality for most poker is that people bring money to the game, not just play with winnings.  Rich people get to play at higher limit tables because they already have a large bankroll.  Professional poker players do not make money playing each other on TV, other than appearance fees.  They make money playing whales and angels at the tables in Vegas.

Try reading The Professor, the Banker, and the Suicide King. It is a fascinating tale of the richest poker game ever played.  And it was funded by Andy Beal and a consortium of professional poker players.  

Besides, what the heck do you think an ATM is at a casino?  You have to learn to beat people bringing their own money to the game.  

 

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Read many of these posts time and time again. Find your own strategy, what works for someone else isn't necessarily going to work for you.Do you have the exact same swarve as them when pulling manouvers off in poker?

If you noticed by the advice people are giving you on here to watch other players, do they play their own style? Or they robotic and play a particular way? There is no right or wrong in poker, its about being smart and lucky. I class this game as 70% luck and 30% skill.. If you playing against those who think its 100% luck, its easy chips for the table :D shark em out. When playing with other skillful players then you just make sure you know when to fold. :D.. With a bit of luck you can take em down!

I find the most difficult players are unpredictable, so conforming to something you think is the right way to play will reveal to me what you have.

The best way to get better is to play, keep playing, get beat, learn from the mistakes of getting whopped by doing calls you shouldn't have or trying to bluff the wrong person.

The facts are in poker you will get had off by higher full houses and fluses and sometimes not see a hand coming from your opponent. This is why its a no no to start betting all your chips in one go. Because you will lose a hand, everyone does! If its the hand with all your chips in, guess you need to run to the bank lol.

There isn't much advice for poker as I recommend you to find your own style. But don't do stupid bets when you have nothing, being a constant bluffer will run you dry.

Edited by oOo_STAR_oOo

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