Cristian

Deck Shuffling Clarification - It doesn't seem random?

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HaloRemastered3  wrote :

"I really just dont know some times when im loesing im thinking rigged but when im winning i love it thats why i feel like trust the mayor hes the only person with the facts an proof etc,and at the end of the day hes got the final verdict"

You know what... I do not feel any good feeling or joy for winning, when the game screw someone else so I am the "lucky" one.

For me its always been about prooving myself at the table. Hell..I don't even cheat at Ludo.

I want a fair game where cards play out as close to by chanse as possible,even if simulated. It does not work that way in this game.

if the Mayor or the developers think this game is good enough and work properly then they have not played enough of the game themselves.

And again...a test survey where players express HOW they experience the game would easely clarify if I'm wrong...or right. Don't let sitting in an office and punching a keyboard determined the quality of your product. Let the players decide and listen to them. 

 

Edited by Tor Ivar Sæternes
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11 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

Or what does the developers think about this wonderful screw up.. or " Being "Prominenced" as we call it.

100K Tournament.

I'm going all inn Preflop with bout 5.8K with my Suited AK

And the player with 23 unsuited decide to CALL with  her 4.4K.

And of course she get rewarded with a Straight.. on the Turn and River. 

Who the F*** does call with 23 all in ???

This game and what happens with the cards are...insane to put it mildly.

And still the developers expect us users to see the game as fine and fair ???

Who can defend a game where stuff I pinpointed time and time again, affect the game negatively over and over again.

I have 20 years experience and are Ranked Nr.1 at Pure Holdem. 

That should be proof enough that I DO know what I'm talking about. I'm no noob who THINK the game if unbalanced. I'm someone who KNOW it is so.

And still we discuss it and the game is being defended by people and the developers.

 

 

 

 

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Hey man i know it hurts bro i just lost 3 times in a row and lost over 60 ranked points and de ranked to gold it happens kid. Some times you take bad beats im simply saying theres nobody to blame but me i called the stupid early all in and cant win them all thats poker kid. All i can tell you is roll with the punches and get good. Keep your head up youll get there kid.

Edited by Halo3remastered

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6 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

So you call with 2 3 ,not even suited against somebody's all in. You don't have say...A2 suited or even a low pair.

You think 2 3 is fine and something you are willing to risk your last 4400 chips with.

Do you have any respect for your own poker skill or are you an ring game player who love to gamble ?

Have you ever thought that the reason why you seem to be noticing so many "bad beats" is precisely because here players tend to make absolutely insane bets and all-ins, rather than folding?

Sometimes those bad hands happen to win by chance, thus "beating bad" other "better" hands. When people keep betting on bad hands, rather than folding, that will naturally increase the amount of "bad beats" that you will witness.

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31 minutes ago, Warp said:

Have you ever thought that the reason why you seem to be noticing so many "bad beats" is precisely because here players tend to make absolutely insane bets and all-ins, rather than folding?

Sometimes those bad hands happen to win by chance, thus "beating bad" other "better" hands. When people keep betting on bad hands, rather than folding, that will naturally increase the amount of "bad beats" that you will witness.

Im back 2 1209 plat going back in kid. It isnt real money its online so people play like that sometimes you win with a high card sometimes you lose with AK thats poker. It comes down to positioning and alot of other poker factors your soo silly kid. Gambling isnt 4 everyone. Just because you see a Ace doesnt mean you win lol i mean what do you want me to do hold your hand threw every poker scenario? Ok i havent smoked yet if you would like to get good everyones invited to my stream twitch.tv/halo3remastered

Edited by Halo3remastered

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9 hours ago, Warp said:

Not trying to insult, but adding such additional steps to try to "improve" the quality of the randomness is a typical beginner programmer mistake (again, something that's taught in the first programming classes at college.)

While I don't think in any way that there's any rigging going on, or even that the claims that PP gives more "bad beats" than it should are pertinent, it still bothers and baffles me why the simple and proven high-quality shuffling algorithm isn't being used, and instead a very convoluted and prone-to-quality-degradations ad-hoc system is being used instead.

No offense taken.  I understand your concerns.  We've never said that we're trying to 'improve the quality of the randomness'.  There are reasons behind the existing algorithm, some of which have been stated in earlier posts.  We've done the research and testing and are completely satisfied that the algorithm produces every possible shuffle in a uniform distribution.

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The mayor has spoken lol.hey mayor is there any possible way we can get more beginning chips in ranked its so damn 🐢 turtly. Maybe even a weekend or monthy bigger events. Im on Full Tilt atm in real life. Lmfao 😲

Edited by Halo3remastered

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Tor,

  I have strongly resisted the urge to respond to you but I just can’t anymore. 

  There are a bunch of ways to get beaten AK v 23. Yeah, I’d probably never make that call, but there are lots of people who would. AK is at BEST, a toss up. If you don’t hit, there are at least six cards in the deck that beat you. 

  So you hit a bad run out. It happens. It will continue to happen, because it it poker. Sometimes it happens more often because people take silly risks with play money. 

  For all your vaunted skill, there is also an element of chance to the game. Learn to live with it. 

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12 hours ago, The Mayor said:

No offense taken.  I understand your concerns.  We've never said that we're trying to 'improve the quality of the randomness'.  There are reasons behind the existing algorithm, some of which have been stated in earlier posts.  We've done the research and testing and are completely satisfied that the algorithm produces every possible shuffle in a uniform distribution.

I know it's asking quite a lot, but I think it would be interesting if you could collect actual data, or at least some statistics, on the server side about all the rounds being actually played by people. Statistics about the card distributions being dealt, and how people behave in terms of betting, calling and folding, and of course win percentages and such. These statistics could show any possible discrepancy in the shuffling process (or, better, show that there isn't any, and that the randomness is evenly distributed as it should), as well as, perhaps, whether the average PP player behaves differently from "skilled" players, which could perhaps explain what some people are claiming to be seeing.

Examining this kind of data in the live environment could perhaps reveal things that don't happen in a testing environment.

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I've noticed, while playing poker, that probability and the odds of certain cards resulting in a winning hand sometimes just don't happen.

Care must be taken to refrain from falling in love with that killer hand the Gods have blessed me with.  Chasing after that elusive straight or flush while someone is over betting the table, is a fools errand. 

During normal play, strategies used with six players won't work with four players, or three players.

Identifying predictability in others is key to  the art of bluffing, but predictability must be avoided by me.

When I suffer a losing streak of several games, it's not because the RNG is rigged or some other external reason.  If I'm the one losing,   its because I'm doing something wrong  and I will continue to lose until I change the way I'm playing.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Warp said:

I know it's asking quite a lot, but I think it would be interesting if you could collect actual data, or at least some statistics, on the server side about all the rounds being actually played by people. Statistics about the card distributions being dealt, and how people behave in terms of betting, calling and folding, and of course win percentages and such. These statistics could show any possible discrepancy in the shuffling process (or, better, show that there isn't any, and that the randomness is evenly distributed as it should), as well as, perhaps, whether the average PP player behaves differently from "skilled" players, which could perhaps explain what some people are claiming to be seeing.

Examining this kind of data in the live environment could perhaps reveal things that don't happen in a testing environment.

I'd love to do that, but TBH it's not likely to ever happen.  It has been discussed and shot down in the past.  Not worth the dev cost, and extremely unlikely to change any minds.

We could hire a large room full of professional poker dealers to physically shuffle decks of cards to produce the shuffles for the game, and it would make no difference.  We'd get just as many people complaining about broken or rigged shuffles.  It's just the nature of online poker.  Check the posts for any other online poker game ever made, you'll see the same complaints.

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Collecting statistical data doesn't sound like it would be a huge coding endeavor. The server already has all this data, because it needs to run the games. The only thing it would need to do is to collect the data somewhere. When all the data for eg. a week or a month has been stored somewhere, then it could be used to perform easy statistical analysis on it.

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On 08/05/2018 at 6:56 AM, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

Are YOU insane DaWiz ????

So you call with 2 3 ,not even suited against somebody's all in. You don't have say...A2 suited or even a low pair.

You think 2 3 is fine and something you are willing to risk your last 4400 chips with.

Do you have any respect for your own poker skill or are you an ring game player who love to gamble ?

You see...in a tournament you can not buy in again...

I know you guys don't care for or about Pure Holdem but I would not be at the position I'm at in that game without doing the right choices. And its 8 handed there,not 6 handed.

Anyone who can defend calling an All In with 2 3 ofsuit is an addicted Gambler and a Cash Game player much more than a Tournament player.

The fact that 23o won the hand is not extraordinary by any means and certainly not worthy of questioning the RNG.  AKs vrs 23o is only 2:1 to win.

AK is a great hand for raising pre flop with but pushing all in with it straight off the bat.... is not something I would recommend.

I think you are more complaining about the fact you got called by a donkey though than the actual RNG? 

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I have to say lately I notice so many Flushes it isn't even funny. I played one Tournament last night and a person won 3 straight with a Flush. Many times all cards laid are same suit. That and Straights seem to be really common.

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On 5/15/2018 at 2:54 PM, TheComputerDave said:

I have to say lately I notice so many Flushes it isn't even funny. I played one Tournament last night and a person won 3 straight with a Flush. Many times all cards laid are same suit. That and Straights seem to be really common.

Yes - Flushes are completely broken right now. last week it was Quad city

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1 hour ago, dotunderscore said:

Yes - Flushes are completely broken right now. last week it was Quad city

 Everybody is getting flushes on the river - except me.  It's defiantly the fault of the  RNG.  Except when I get a flush then its because of my superior play.

I normally do Ranked Tournaments on XB, were everyone checks each hand thru the river, waiting for the magical flush or quad so they can over bet.

The other night I joined a 200k ring game on my PC, and there were no flushes or quads!  Players 2 and 3 bet pre-flop, They 2 bet after the flop. I've never seen so may hands won on a pair.   These people seemed to play for the fun and challenge of the game, I must go back..

Welcome to the forum.

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Some people have a cognitive misconception about probabilities and how they work.

For example, with 5 best cards being chosen from a group of 7 cards, the probability of a flush is about 1 in 32. Meaning that, on average, there will be a flush approximately once every 32 rounds.

Many people, thus, get the misconception that if they see an unusually high amount of flushes, like for example 3 flushes during 10 rounds, or 5 flushes in 20 rounds, or something like that, then there's something wrong. Clearly if the odds are 1 in 32, having 3 in 10 rounds is an indication of the randomness being completely skewed! That's like 1 in 3, not 1 in 32!

But this is nothing but a variant of the gambler's fallacy. Just because on average (over thousands and thousands of rounds) the probability is 1 in 32, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to get some streaks of flushes, where in a relatively short amount of rounds you get tons of flushes. Every round is its own event, and doesn't care what has happened in previous rounds.

Just because tossing a coin gives you a 50% chance of getting heads, that doesn't mean that getting 10 heads in a row is indicative of something being wrong. (It's not even hard to get 10 heads in a row, if you keep tossing for long enough. There are even genuine videos of this, of people doing that. They keep tossing a coin for a couple of hundred times, videoing themselves, and when they get the 10-toss streak, they show that segment.)

Sometimes it, likewise, happens in the other direction: You might go for 200 rounds with only one or two flushes appearing. That's also completely normal. Yet nobody pays attention to that. We only pay attention when it happens unusually often.

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On 5/6/2018 at 12:00 PM, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

Let me demonstrate the problem :

2 days ago I played two 500K tournaments and won both. And against good players. I won because of my skill,Not by luck or chanse.

The last 2 days I have played 3 Ranked tournaments and got 5th..5th..4th.  Not because I play bad..but because the game screw me over.

Look at the picture provided.  I have QQ and we are all in on the Flop.

I get Trips on the Turn..meaning she MUST have a K on the river to win...And she gets it.

These things happens SO often in this game. Sure you can loose with the best hand Preflop or on the Flop. But in THIS game you loose wayyyyy to often. So your skill does not matter once the "algorithm" kicks in. It's horrible and destroys any trust in the game.

If the developers ASKED the players with a good bankroll they would get the same answer from everyone : This game is not normal and fair.

Reading the Mayor defending the game like he knows everything is fine, is weird and show a lack of knowledge on how WE experience the game. NO ONE trust this game to be normal. 

So again ASK the players and you will understand how much of a problem the card algorithm are.

 

20180506_033316.thumb.jpg.88ed805bf8881d0595563a352d98691b.jpg

So this is the fated 'evidence' in prominence's 'flawed RNG', a single image of a bad beat with no indication to preflop or post flop action, stack size or blind level. So essentially just a picture.

So the only thing we can actually take away from this is the A10 hand had 5 outs on the the flop ~20% and 4 puts on the turn ~9-10%. Hardly anything to right home about, play as much poker as I do and this  will happens to you every few hours. That's poker

Hell depending on stack size and blind level,  you could easily argue that this should of all been all in preflop. On the other hand, If you are on the first level then you BOTH have overplayed your hands.

Hardly evidence of bad code, I also read some of the 23o v AKs hand. Again without stack size and blind level can't complete a full picture. It's probs a bad call unless they had less than 3 big blinds.

 

Thing is you want them to call, you want them to call and you have a ~64% chance of winning. But you are only going to win 2 out of 3 times even though u want the call. And sometimes they hit the 2 or 3, the flop gave them 4 more outs. again its poker. Nothing that won't happen on any other poker site every other hour. Say they call with J10s instead, is that a terrible call? virtually the same odds they have to win as 23o.

The sooner you except that sometimes you get outdrawed and sometimes you get unlucky the easier you'll except these beats and stop blaming the software. And if you play a winning brand of poker, you will take the odd beat but long term you will be a profitable player

 

 

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Every player I talk to say the same thing..Prominence Poker is not fine when it comes to the cards and what happens with them.

It's not some player here and there it is EVERYONE I talk to

If the developer asked players why they feel this way, they might start to understand what we go through.

I have 33mill so I know how to play and would not state the card issue if I was not 25 years experienced with poker.Live or Computer.

 

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Playing online poker for free chips is meant to be  a form of entertainment.  Nothing more and nothing less.   That one has a large bankroll in PP only means that you've earned a bunch of chips playing PP and is not an indication of expertise on playing poker.  My first hold-em poker game was in late 2009 and I've morphed thru several different free video poker websites, I expect there will be more. 

I'm no expert but I currently have 26 mil in chips, I play ranked tournaments and I play every  day, usually before noon.  It's just something I  do for enjoyment ( the same reason I'm here on this forum).

To expect that sitting in ones apartment playing video games is reality is an indication of a larger problem. 

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13 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

I would say it simple like this :

if there were no issue with  the cards..why do we have 21 pages of discussion ?

and even if experienced players appart from myself say it is 

 

LOL.   You're forgetting about WSOP FHP in 2014.

If you remember back to 2013-2014, we also had this *SAME* long discussion for that game too.  

I know that ClearConscious remembers what I'm talking about, LOL.

Back in 2014, a member named ProdigalGil started *numerous* and *long* threads complaining about the RNG for WSOP FHP.

In fact, that discussion was so heated that he even tried to get Pipeworks to let him see the internal algorithm by offering to sign an NDA.

So what's my point?

My point is that WSOP FHP had a *totally different* shuffling algorithm from PP ---- yet the same members started complaining that the RNG was artificially promoting river suckouts a high percentage of the time.

Sound familiar?

It's the exact same thing you're all claiming today.   

Yet the 2 games had 2 totally different shuffling algorithms.  LOL.

How can 2 totally different algorithms promote the *exact* same non-random event?  (river suckouts, but no other irregularities)

What a coincidence.   :-)  

That's what Mayor was trying to tell you.   

Mayor was correct in saying that even if they changed to a totally different algorithm (or used real dealers to deal every hand, LOL) --- the same people would still complain of a rigged deck or a non random RNG whenever they suffer a bad beat by donks on the river.

ClearConscious and Mayor have shown us the results of 2 billion shuffles.  They didn't have to show us that data, but they did anyway.   

Their data matches up perfectly with real life statistics.  

That's game over right there.  

Mayor has proven his point and you have lost your argument.    

Another thing...    Since you have 30 million chips and are a great player who is winning a lot more than losing, how can you claim that bad beats are happening a high percentage of the time?     If that were really true then you'd be losing your stacks a high percentage of the time and wouldn't be a winner overall.   

Thus your own chip stack proves what Mayor has been saying ---- that the deck is statistically accurate and the bad beats you're experiencing are just NORMAL VARIANCE which happens on every poker table.

The game is awesome and fair.   

That's why "Pure Hold'em" (the competition) has so few players that I couldn't even get a $1k table going without being assigned mostly AI-computer opponents to play against, LOL.    It's a ghost town over there at the Pure Hold'em tables.

Oh, and the new game you mentioned "Just Deal with It" (coming out in November) is not a serious poker game.   It's a silly "party card game" with several card games included, with a silly bright kiddie atmosphere.   You'll never get a serious poker following on that silly game.

Stop letting your emotions skew your logic.   This argument has been settled a long time ago.   2 billion shuffles proves the point.   Case closed.

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54 minutes ago, I_am_not_here said:

 

LOL.   You're forgetting about WSOP FHP in 2014.

If you remember back to 2013-2014, we also had this *SAME* long discussion for that game too.  

I know that ClearConscious remembers what I'm talking about, LOL.

Back in 2014, a member named ProdigalGil started *numerous* and *long* threads complaining about the RNG for WSOP FHP.

In fact, that discussion was so heated that he even tried to get Pipeworks to let him see the internal algorithm by offering to sign an NDA.

So what's my point?

My point is that WSOP FHP had a *totally different* shuffling algorithm from PP ---- yet the same members started complaining that the RNG was artificially promoting river suckouts a high percentage of the time.

Sound familiar?

It's the exact same thing you're all claiming today.   

Yet the 2 games had 2 totally different shuffling algorithms.  LOL.

How can 2 totally different algorithms promote the *exact* same non-random event?  (river suckouts, but no other irregularities)

What a coincidence.   🙂  

That's what Mayor was trying to tell you.   

Mayor was correct in saying that even if they changed to a totally different algorithm (or used real dealers to deal every hand, LOL) --- the same people would still complain of a rigged deck or a non random RNG whenever they suffer a bad beat by donks on the river.

ClearConscious and Mayor have shown us the results of 2 billion shuffles.  They didn't have to show us that data, but they did anyway.   

Their data matches up perfectly with real life statistics.  

That's game over right there.  

Mayor has proven his point and you have lost your argument.    

Another thing...    Since you have 30 million chips and are a great player who is winning a lot more than losing, how can you claim that bad beats are happening a high percentage of the time?     If that were really true then you'd be losing your stacks a high percentage of the time and wouldn't be a winner overall.   

Thus your own chip stack proves what Mayor has been saying ---- that the deck is statistically accurate and the bad beats you're experiencing are just NORMAL VARIANCE which happens on every poker table.

The game is awesome and fair.   

That's why "Pure Hold'em" (the competition) has so few players that I couldn't even get a $1k table going without being assigned mostly AI-computer opponents to play against, LOL.    It's a ghost town over there at the Pure Hold'em tables.

Oh, and the new game you mentioned "Just Deal with It" (coming out in November) is not a serious poker game.   It's a silly "party card game" with several card games included, with a silly bright kiddie atmosphere.   You'll never get a serious poker following on that silly game.

Stop letting your emotions skew your logic.   This argument has been settled a long time ago.   2 billion shuffles proves the point.   Case closed.

Oh. I remember 🤔

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