Cristian

Deck Shuffling Clarification - It doesn't seem random?

566 posts in this topic

On 12/31/2017 at 1:02 AM, Warp said:

It's also possible that reptilians are using their psychic powers to affect the game

Fabricating a story of such ridiculous lengths that it cannot be proven, does nothing to discredit my claims. I claimed it was possible. The devs backed me up (to a degree). There's your proof. That's the only proof that I have the burden of presenting. YOU implied that it's a constant problem being exploited & distributed by numerous people, therefore the burden of proof for those claims is on YOU.

We're both just repeating ourselves at this point, so I'll say this one last time: This discussion is over. Now, kindly detach yourself from my tits before I start taking this personal.

Edited by DPack
noticed a typo that slipped through spellcheck

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22 hours ago, DPack said:

We're both just repeating ourselves at this point, so I'll say this one last time: This discussion is over.

Then why are you continuing it?

 

22 hours ago, DPack said:

Now, kindly detach yourself from my tits before I start taking this personal.

Go right ahead. I don't care.

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After considering and poundering about why it is so many bizarre bad beats and "unlucky" river cards..or other cards that turn sure winners into loosing hands...I think the reason is simple.

The game is programmed to do this to make ring game players go broke.

And so..have to buy more chips.

Tournament players are kind of protected as the can only loose the ammount they have at stake in the tournament.

But of course it make the whole game and experience unstable and unbalanced. And make players "Hate" the game.  

It's a shame that the game is built this way. It hurts the trust and fun in playing it.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

After considering and poundering about why it is so many bizarre bad beats and "unlucky" river cards..or other cards that turn sure winners into loosing hands...I think the reason is simple.

The game is programmed to do this to make ring game players go broke.

And so..have to buy more chips.

Tournament players are kind of protected as the can only loose the ammount they have at stake in the tournament.

But of course it make the whole game and experience unstable and unbalanced. And make players "Hate" the game.  

It's a shame that the game is built this way. It hurts the trust and fun in playing it.

 

 

 

So you maintain that PP has singled you out to always receive bad beats?  Interesting.

I mostly play tournaments, and last season I reached diamond.  This season has been terrible, and I've narrowed it down to the way I've been playing is the reason.  I'm in the process of finding a way to win more often.

Six players all receive cards from the same deck and 5 of us are not going to win. 

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On 3/30/2018 at 2:28 AM, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

or other cards that turn sure winners into loosing hands...

Sure winners...

There's actually a term for that kind of hand: "Nut hand", or more colloquially "nuts" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_hand ) It's the best possible hand that cannot be possibly beaten by anything any opponent could have.

So you are saying that the game, somehow, makes a nut hand into a losing hand on the river? Care to explain how, exactly?

Or perhaps you didn't mean "sure winner" after all?

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I think..if Prominence Poker took a survey about how we players experience playing,they would quickly find out that it is a frustrating and F*cked up experience.

Horrible bad beats....bizarre experiences and WAY to many ways to loose hands..that you should not have to experience.

It's a shame it's never fixed.

A poker game where the card dealings don't work is a broken game. 

I am Ranked Nr.1 at Pure Holdem,so I know what I'm talking about..

20180330_172802.jpg

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10 hours ago, Farmer John40 said:

  Welcome to this forum.  Sorry you're not winning as much as you think you should. 

Bummer :)

This has nothing to do with winning as much as i hoped. I have 20.7 mill chips so i do ok.

It is what happens at the table that is the issue. I tell you...if you had spoken to players on PP or taken a survey on WHAT players think...you would soon find out that most everyone agrees that way to much strange things happens with the cards. It's not me...I have played for 20 years and know my poker.

I had to play 25 games in Gold tier last season..to reach Platinum. And I am Ranked Nr.1 at Pure Holdem. I struggled so much because the game made me loose sure hands again and again and again.

Either the developers know about the card issue and choose to ignore it or they live in ignorant bliss of how this affect the player base and also the trust/fun in the game

This issue is the biggest problem about Prominence Poker. The one thing that needs to be solved and sorted out.

Please ask players and find out if I'm just "seeing things" or if I am right.

A Poker game without fair and working card dealings is a broken Poker game....

20180312_130315.jpg

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15 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

This has nothing to do with winning as much as i hoped. I have 20.7 mill chips so i do ok.

It is what happens at the table that is the issue. I tell you...if you had spoken to players on PP or taken a survey on WHAT players think...you would soon find out that most everyone agrees that way to much strange things happens with the cards. It's not me...I have played for 20 years and know my poker.

I had to play 25 games in Gold tier last season..to reach Platinum. And I am Ranked Nr.1 at Pure Holdem. I struggled so much because the game made me loose sure hands again and again and again.

Either the developers know about the card issue and choose to ignore it or they live in ignorant bliss of how this affect the player base and also the trust/fun in the game

This issue is the biggest problem about Prominence Poker. The one thing that needs to be solved and sorted out.

Please ask players and find out if I'm just "seeing things" or if I am right.

A Poker game without fair and working card dealings is a broken Poker game....

20180312_130315.jpg

Don't feel too bad, for the first time since I started playing PP I didn't even make Platinum, in fact I barely made gold.  I'm stepping away from PP for awhile and splitting my time between Pure Hold Em and some other games I've gotten into.  The beats I took in March were brutal and I need to step away for awhile, besides I already paid for Pure Hold Em so I might as well play it.  It's more of a simulation of poker then a "game" so I prefer playing there anyways.  I just wish I could find a community of players that still play it.

Edited by rockguy24
incomplete sentence

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I play the Scheduled Master or Ace tournaments. But most players jumped to PP once it came around. 

It's great to see that there are other players than me who experience the incredible amount of Bad Beats and incredible luck the game deals out. As I have mentioned in other posts..I don't think it is by chanse it happens. 

I have even contacted the developers pointing art the issue..But never Got a reply.

So it's safe to say...they know about it and that the game is programmed that way.

What they don't seem to realise is that by doing so,It disrupt the whole game experience.

You can not trust the game to be fair and reward your skill as a Poker player.

Pure Holdem is actually a better game than this compared...even if it too have it's issues with cards.

It's a shame that fixing the card dealings is not a part of "the roadmap" ..As they call future developments.

 

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3 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

I play the Scheduled Master or Ace tournaments. But most players jumped to PP once it came around. 

It's great to see that there are other players than me who experience the incredible amount of Bad Beats and incredible luck the game deals out. As I have mentioned in other posts..I don't think it is by chanse it happens. 

I have even contacted the developers pointing art the issue..But never Got a reply.

So it's safe to say...they know about it and that the game is programmed that way.

What they don't seem to realise is that by doing so,It disrupt the whole game experience.

You can not trust the game to be fair and reward your skill as a Poker player.

Pure Holdem is actually a better game than this compared...even if it too have it's issues with cards.

It's a shame that fixing the card dealings is not a part of "the roadmap" ..As they call future developments.

 

Buy my count, this is your fourth post on  the same theme.  PP fails to recognize how great you are based on your experience on Pure Hold-em.

I'm always amazed when a person comes to this forum and embarks on this agenda by way of introduction.  What compels them to try to convince tens of thousands of satisfied players that they alone know all the answers?   Why in the world can't they accept that we are here at PP because we chose to be?  Don't they realize that we all play from the same deck of cards, and that for every game, most of the players don't win?

I urge you to consider the possibility that you're the only one who is unhappy,.  

Edited by Farmer John40
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7 hours ago, Farmer John40 said:

Buy my count, this is your fourth post on  the same theme.  PP fails to recognize how great you are based on your experience on Pure Hold-em.

I'm always amazed when a person comes to this forum and embarks on this agenda by way of introduction.  What compels them to try to convince tens of thousands of satisfied players that they alone know all the answers?   Why in the world can't they accept that we are here at PP because we chose to be?  Don't they realize that we all play from the same deck of cards, and that for every game, most of the players don't win?

I urge you to consider the possibility that you're the only one who is unhappy,.  

Farmer John....Have they ever taken a survey..or asked the players what they feel and think. No.

So these "thousand of satisfied players" ..well I have not talked to any. But I have talked to many experiencing exactly what I pinpont.

Its not me....it is how the game works that is the problem

But I guess if they think everything is fine..then they won't change anything.

Well see in the next update what they change. But without sorting out the card problems,this game stays the same. A pitty.

 

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13 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

I play the Scheduled Master or Ace tournaments. But most players jumped to PP once it came around. 

It's great to see that there are other players than me who experience the incredible amount of Bad Beats and incredible luck the game deals out. As I have mentioned in other posts..I don't think it is by chanse it happens. 

I have even contacted the developers pointing art the issue..But never Got a reply.

So it's safe to say...they know about it and that the game is programmed that way.

What they don't seem to realise is that by doing so,It disrupt the whole game experience.

You can not trust the game to be fair and reward your skill as a Poker player.

Pure Holdem is actually a better game than this compared...even if it too have it's issues with cards.

It's a shame that fixing the card dealings is not a part of "the roadmap" ..As they call future developments.

 

Wait until they make the blinds go up every time a player gets knocked out of a tournament.  Every player will just go all in every hand pre flop until there's a winner.  That's not my idea of a tournament but fortunately it's our choice wether or not we continue to play Prominence or not.  It's a free game and at the end of the day if the majority of players that play Prominence like what they're doing it won't matter what you or I think about it,  I'm just glad I have a choice of where I play poker on my ps4.

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2 hours ago, Tor Ivar Sæternes said:

Farmer John....Have they ever taken a survey..or asked the players what they feel and think. No.

So these "thousand of satisfied players" ..well I have not talked to any. But I have talked to many experiencing exactly what I pinpont.

Its not me....it is how the game works that is the problem

But I guess if they think everything is fine..then they won't change anything.

Well see in the next update what they change. But without sorting out the card problems,this game stays the same. A pitty.

 

I  invite you to read the  reams of post available on this forum on this topic.  And the response from PP.

As a point of fact, I purchased Pure Holdem and found their format rather sophomoric and boring.  But then I play online line games for enjoyment. 

PP  continually updates their product based on feedback from we the public, either by scheduling an update or fixing a problem the same da it is reported.

As for the "card problem". everybody at the table receives cards from the same deck, and only one player wins each hand.  It's not the "cards" that prevent you from winning, its the cold reality that everyone is not playing your style of poker. 

I play for  entertainment, nothing more and nothing less.  I play ranked tournaments and range from silver to diamond and back.  I play at least once a day (mornings Pacific time zone), my chip count is 17m and my affiliation is a level 5 Diamond.  (my rep  count of 580 is from honest play)

I played Pipeworks earlier version, called WSOP Full House Pro, on XB gold.

See you at the tables.

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Hello new to the forums and just wanted to give my two cents on this topic.

I've been playing on PS4, I'm level 138 and I don't believe the shuffling/dealing of the cards is very 'random'.

To me it seems to me 'rigged' for bidding wars and possibly in favor of new players in order to generate excitement but ends up coming off fabricated and artificial. 

Personally I find this detracts quite a bit from the game but otherwise I find it very good...I am just left with the feeling that it would be so much better if it were more realistic. 

I win plenty enough that I've never had to buy chips which means it's all free so I'm not complaining, but I do feel a more randomized, realistic shuffle would really improve the games overall enjoyment factor once the initial new game experience wears off. 

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1 hour ago, Cloud Guy said:

I win plenty enough that I've never had to buy chips which means it's all free so I'm not complaining, but I do feel a more randomized, realistic shuffle would really improve the games overall enjoyment factor once the initial new game experience wears off. 

I agree with this part.

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The shuffle can't be more randomized or realistic, and frankly I resent the accusation.

But I'm wasting my breath, again.  People who think it's rigged will never be convinced otherwise.  Truth and math are irrelevant.

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There is no need to be resentful because my experience and perception of your product is not an accusation.

It is simply my experience and interpretation of the experience of which you have provided. 

Perhaps realistic randomness isn't something that can be easily defined.

All I know is compared to when I play with physical cards the experience regarding what is dealt and the feel of the hands is noticeably different. 

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26 minutes ago, Cloud Guy said:

There is no need to be resentful because my experience and perception of your product is not an accusation.

It is simply my experience and interpretation of the experience of which you have provided. 

Perhaps realistic randomness isn't something that can be easily defined.

All I know is compared to when I play with physical cards the experience regarding what is dealt and the feel of the hands is noticeably different. 

You're right, computers and real-life are different.  

Computers can't subtract, or multiple, or divide   The can only add..

They can't do logic worth a damn either.

 Welcome to PP and the forum. 

Edited by Farmer John40
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Rigged is a strong term. I disagree with that perspective.

Although, sometimes I notice abnormal  patterns and sequences. For example, community card flushes. These types of sequences, I'm assuming, can also be found in live play; so I have no contest. 

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On 1/24/2017 at 5:48 PM, ClearConscious said:

We do not shuffle the deck.  That is, we don't take an ordered deck of 52 cards and randomize the order of all 52 cards in the deck.  Instead, we randomly choose a card from the deck each time we need a card.

 

The game server has a RNG for choosing cards for the high card deal and the community cards, plus another six RNGs for the six seats for choosing player hole cards.  These seven RNGs are shared among all games running on the game server.  The main RNG is initialized at game server startup.  The seat RNGs are initialized each time a player is added to that seat number on any table on the server, using a random number generated with the main RNG.  Thus entropy is introduced by the timing of players being added to tables, and by the interaction of multiple tables drawing cards at different times throughout the hands.  We also don't start each hand with an ordered deck - we leave the table's deck in its unordered state from the previous hands, which adds more entropy.

 

The RNGs are instances of .Net System.Random.

 

We have done testing with a game server playing 2 billion hands across several tables and found that the resulting data very precisely matches the mathematical probabilities for 7-card poker hands.

 

I've always wondered if the current setup produces the same results as having an ordered deck.

I'm not sure what occurs in live play, but it seems as if the dealer shuffles a 52 card deck before each hand and deals cards from the top. Whatever is being done in live play, I think, should be mirrored as closely as possible in online poker. IMO, that would mean shuffling a 52 card ordered deck before each hand in PP. I'm not sure if that would cause server concerns, etc., but that's how my basic mind thinks.

Just my opinions.

Edited by DaWiz_

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1 hour ago, DaWiz_ said:

Rigged is a strong term. I disagree with that perspective.

Although, sometimes I notice abnormal  patterns and sequences. For example, community card flushes. These types of sequences, I'm assuming, can also be found in live play; so I have no contest. 

What's really frustrating is when the other players receive better cards than I do !:S

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4 hours ago, DaWiz_ said:

I've always wondered if the current setup produces the same results as having an ordered deck.

It does.

When dealing cards from a deck, whether physical pieces of paper from a stack of paper, or in computer memory, what you're doing is randomly choosing a partial permutation of 52 things.  The standard physical shuffle of physical cards and subsequent distribution of cards from the top of the deck is not mathematically different than distributing cards from random locations throughout a deck that hasn't been shuffled.  But physical limitations, and trust issues more than anything, force us into this process of shuffling and dealing from the top.

Software doesn't have the physical/trust issues to contend with, so it can just randomly choose cards out of the deck.  The basic card shuffle algorithm is to build a shuffled deck by randomly choosing a card from the deck 52 times - the Fisher-Yates Shuffle.  The top card is chosen, then the next, and the next, and so on, until all 52 cards are randomly chosen.  Then we deal out however many cards we need from the top.  In PP, we only need the first 17 cards (or less) - 2 for each player (4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 cards) plus the 5 community cards.  Ie., we need to randomly choose up to 17 cards from the deck.  It doesn't matter what order the remaining cards are in - that of course has no effect on the hand.  So we don't actually need to do that part of the shuffle - it's completely pointless.

But regardless of whether we pick 52 random cards or only 17, the basic algorithm is flawed in the context of online poker.  It would be possible, and not really all that difficult for someone who knows what they're doing, to predict the shuffle.  Our multiple RNGs as described above are designed to add unknowable, true randomness to the pseudo-random number generator, making it impossible to predict the shuffle.

We also need to ensure that our random number space is large enough to produce all permutations of 17 cards.  Our algorithm gives us this as well, many times over.

The initial ordering of the deck that cards are randomly chosen from is irrelevant and has no effect on the probabilities.  I mentioned it in that original post only because it's an important factor in the ability for someone to predict the shuffle.  When choosing a random card from a deck, the probability of choosing the Ace of Spades is the same no matter what order the cards are in to begin with: 1/52.  The probability of choosing TsJsQsKsAs in that order, or any particular ordered set of N cards, is the same regardless of the initial locations of those cards within the deck.  For any given pseudo-random number sequence used to choose the cards, different deck orderings will of course produce different deals.  Or another way to look at it is that different deck orderings would require a different random number sequence to produce the same deal.  The probability of any particular deal is the same regardless.

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Mayor you can defend the game and card algorithm as much as you want but of the many,many players I've talked to since the game was released...No-one  think or say that it is random and even close to how it is to play with real cards.  There are WAY to many rivers or other bizarre outcomes that happens for this to be normal.

You can pretend everything is all right but as long as the developer don't care to actually find out what all the players think..feel and experience,you are just ignoring the truth.

Nobody respect this game for how it try to be a Poker Game when it comes to the card dealings. At least I do not know anyone of all my 370 pokerfriends playing it.

Its weird.. bizarre and a constant source for frustration and anger. 

I have 22mill+ chips so I'm surviving but do I enjoy the game ?..not really, as I never can trust that my poker skill will let me win a hand.

Only you guys can sort this out and it is the number ONE issue with this game.

Would be nice if it did get sorted out but after all this time I do not think it will.

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You're right, it's not going to change.  We think that rigging the shuffle to match the expectations of people who are unhappy with math would not be good for the game.  We're going to stick with the mathematically correct algorithm.

Also, the Earth is round, climate change is real, and the moon landings were not faked.  The CIA totally killed JFK though.

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