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Cristian

Deck Shuffling Clarification - It doesn't seem random?

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15 hours ago, Prodigal Gil said:

A developer...a programmer...a computer programming specialist! Now that has opened up a new can of worms for one claiming to be the expert and not knowing what a dev is as a lingo. Did one get caught red handed. In fact, what language do you know? High or low level language?  Do you know Fortran? How is your . Et? Do you pronounce C# as C Hash? :-)

I know what a "dev" is. I was asking about your strange statement: "Wrap was putting up a decent argument until he revealed he was a dev"

Yes, I'm a computer programmer, and I do it as my payjob (and have been doing so for over 10 years). You are saying that me "revealing" this information (as it had been some kind of secret) somehow lessens by argument. WTF are you talking about? Your logic is completely insane.

You have clearly demonstrated that it's you who doesn't know anything about pseudorandom number generators, how they work, or how the quality of one is measured. Instead, you make these completely strange statements that me "revealing" that I'm a programmer somehow discredits my opinion.

And if you want to know, I program mainly in C++ and Objective-C, in the field of game programming. Not that that has anything to do with this subject.

Quote

I formally give up debating this point of PRNG or any mathermatics with you.

I'll take that as a concession.

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9 hours ago, Rotravi said:

But i must say that the Poker Algorithm is NOT good in this game.

What is "the Poker Algorithm"?

You did not give a single example of how you think it's wrong.

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18 hours ago, Rotravi said:

Then you play at a computer generated card randomization game,like Pure Holdem and Prominence Poker and it don't take too long to experience that this is NOT random enough...to put it that way. Like the other day when I had 99  and Flop comes 10 9 6.  The blinds are 1000/500.  I Raise   1000...the player with  QQ   Re-raise me to 3000.   I Hollywood å bit then go All In. Turn..River is QQ . GIving her Quads.  I can't even REMEMBER when that happened to me in any other game last.  

Or at Pure Holdem Master Tournament 2 days ago. I have 760.000 left and get QQ....   I go all inn and this Clown with Suited J5 calls me and flops a house !!??   Just insane.

You seem to have this strange notion that if something has a low probability of happening, if it does happen, that must mean that the system is rigged somehow. It doesn't "feel" right to you, somehow.

Do you know what the chances are of one player getting ace quads, and another player getting a royal flush at the same time? Approximately 1 in 163 million. Yet I can give you links to not just one, but two youtube videos of different situations of this happening in real tournaments.

What you are experiencing is people going all-in with crappy hands and sometimes getting lucky. That's PP for you. It's not a fault of the game. It's a feature of the players. Players in other venues don't act like that (often because they play with real money and don't want to lose it). For each such lucky happenstance, those same players lose a hundred such rounds. You are just remembering the lucky ones and ignoring the hundreds of cases where they actually lose with a crappy hand. Those people are losing their virtual money like mad because they are playing badly, save for that occasional lucky hit when they do hit the jackpot with a crazy all-in. And then other people accuse the game itself of being rigged somehow.

I sometimes call all-ins with very good hands, and sometimes I lose. But most often I win. The proportion of each is probably about right. What I don't do, however, is just remembering the times I lose, the times that that 20 or whatever percent of chance of my opponent winning realizes itself (which does happen) and forgetting all the times that I have won such situations.

You giving individual examples is useless. I can give you examples of astonishingly rare circumstances (even rarer than that quad-aces vs. royal flush), but that means nothing. They happen.

If you want to prove that the system is flawed, you need more data than a half dozen examples.

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I've been playing here  for awhile now and have observed the following.

 

There is something to the thought that there is something to the way this game works. It's not normal from my observation.

 

I am one of those that has to grind and grind for anything.

I can play for over an hour in a tournament and never win a hand. Yet I see the same one or two players consistently win hands with better delt hands.

It's rare that I can pair any card, whether I play the hand or not.

If I do hit it's usually the low pair on the board.

If I get a face cards is a pretty sure bet the cards on the table will be number cards.

If I get number cards you'll see face cars on the table.

If I get suited cards I will be very lucky if one of that suits hits the table.

I see one or two players in every tournament that hit cards regularly.

Bluffing is very hard when you have the worst hand.

On occasion I will get into a winning situation and I get kicked out with an "authentication error".  I will have been in the tournament an hour or more and get knocked out with this and cannot rejoin the tournament.

Yes 

It's differnt with this game from other places I have played.

 

 

Edited by Mulligan22
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11 hours ago, Rotravi said:

16 pages of discussion should point to there being something not right about the poker algorithm,in this game.

To this day you have still not explained what this mysterious "poker algorithm" of yours is.

From what I gather, this "algorithm" seems to consist of rules like: "A player with pocket aces should never lose." "No bad beats on the river." "Picture pocket cards should always beat number pocket cards." Anything else? How much must the game be rigged to give you wins, before you are happy?

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12 hours ago, Rotravi said:

Sites like Unibet...Pokerstars can not and never have issues with abnormal card behaviour.  If they had..they would never have been earning money. Nobody would play there.

So at those sites, if you have pocket aces, you never lose on the river?

If that's the case, then I'd say those sites are rigged.

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On 1/25/2017 at 0:48 AM, ClearConscious said:

The RNGs are instances of .Net System.Random.

All other discussion in this thread aside, is there a reason why a higher-quality PRNG isn't being used, such as the Mersenne Twister? I'm sure that a good implementation for the language you are using is readily available. (If it's C++, it's even in the standard library). This would put aside for once and all whether the PRNG is of enough quality or not. I don't think relying on System.Random is such a good idea. And switching to a more high-quality PRNG ought to be a relatively simple change.

(And while you are at it, why not simplify the implementation of deck shuffling? A common, and good, wisdom in computing science is that when you try to "improve" a PRNG by adding your own logic to it, more often than not you'll just end up making it worse. The technical reason for this is that achieving high quality in random number generation is quite advanced and meticulous mathematics, and messing up the implementation can very easily just lower the quality, when you don't know what you are doing. Patterns may be introduced that weren't there before. Just use the good old Fisher-Yates shuffle, with that high-quality PRNG.)

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On 8/13/2017 at 11:39 AM, Warp said:

All other discussion in this thread aside, is there a reason why a higher-quality PRNG isn't being used, such as the Mersenne Twister? I'm sure that a good implementation for the language you are using is readily available. (If it's C++, it's even in the standard library). This would put aside for once and all whether the PRNG is of enough quality or not. I don't think relying on System.Random is such a good idea. And switching to a more high-quality PRNG ought to be a relatively simple change.

It would be really nice to get some kind of response to this.

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I don't really understand why you can't respond with something. Even a "we'll consider it" would be better than nothing.

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 Warp,

  Perhaps the lack of response has many reasons.  You're not the first to harp on this topic, indeed over the past year numerous players have noted that the cards dealt don't reflect reality.  This can be explained by the simple fact that computers don't do random things!  They're driven by programs that execute a logical sequence instructions.  We're never going to get a PRNG to replicate a human.  

Your next area of concern seems to be that there are superior PRNG's in existence that are better than the one used by PP.  OK, I'll take your word for that.  Why change?

Think about it.    We all sit at the same table and react to the sequence of cards that are dealt from the SAME deck.  Changing the PRNG would not alter this fact.

Bottom line. if you want to play real poker you'll need to go to a real casino.  Meanwhile, PP is a pretty good video representation of hold-em poker.

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I think there could a bot that automatically replays with the same answers every single time someone makes the claim that "PRNGs are not as good as true randomness".

Yes, they are.

There is no metric you can use to distinguish between a cryptographically strong PRNG and a true source of randomness, other than getting so many values that you roll over the PRNG (which with cryptographically strong PRNG's would require pretty much several times the lifespan of the universe to happen). You cannot take, for example, a billion rounds of Texas Hold'em, examine them, and come up with a sureway answer of whether they used such a PRNG or true randomness.

No matter how many times people repeat the opposite claim, it doesn't make it true. You do not understand how randomness and PRNGs work at all.

Your answer misses completely the point I was making.

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Ive seen a lot of suck outs bad beats whatever.  One thing i remember if this was a real game for real money 99% of the hands would never go to the river, You wouldn't have 5 ppl going all in againts your AA. I m not sure if its bad programing or just that its not real poker. Ive played a lot of live NL and sure things dont go the way it does in here but you still get bad beats you still get suck outs. Just when you do o a real bet most ppl dont chase as much in real life unless the like being broke. But this is all fake chips so its easy to call anything. Maybe 1 out of every 100 hands on a real full table would you see more them 3 ppl in the hand after the flop and a raise.

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When people use play money, they act quite differently compared to if they used real money. There is essentially nothing of value to lose, therefore you can take more risks, just for the thrills. People will make completely crazy all-ins with completely crappy hands, just to try to bluff their opponents. Sometimes they get lucky. And then people remember all those lucky happenstances, and don't remember, or even are aware, of the dozens and dozens of such times for that player where he did not win.

It also causes all kinds of other types of unusual behavior. Just watch any pro tournament and see how many times all players just limp pre-flop. Compare to how many times this happens at PP. When you have six players going to the flop, oftentimes one of them is going to get amazingly lucky.

Edited by Warp
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When a thread titled "Rigged" has one of the highest view counts on your entire website, it might be time to rethink your outlook on the subject - especially when your player count should be way higher.

Almost everything about the game is attracting, otherwise.

Mix this issue with the 100k duplicate legendary chest drain, and it begs for players to wonder what vision the game is headed.

This game has the potential to be very popular, but these two things need to be addressed. 

Money will pour in using an approach that makes players want to spend, rather then feel cheated.

Edited by UntameableAnge1

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What I want to know, why is it you know who will be the last two sitting players near the beginning of the game, in a tournament. Unless one of them get big headed and mess things up by throwing all their money in. I guess this too many times right and isn’t a joy to play when it’s like that. How does the computer pick the winning player at the start of each game. It’s so obvious who it will be when that person gets a high % of winning hands. I’m struggling to reach the Diamonds Tier, which I’ve been trying right at the start of its launch. Seems so unfair and there’s nothing I can do when I mostly get no winning hands. There’s too much of a big gap for winning hands I’ve been noticing with my games. On average I will get 20% on wins and 80% no wins by each tournament games.

Edited by Pazzie

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Your argument is the computer has chosen the winner and so deals them best....?
If that is truly your argument .. like really?
And you can tell that person is going to run hot because the computer has chosen them to run hot.. from go...?

Additional unrelated question: Do you have easy access to birth control?


 

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Yeah, I'm sure that the game selects the winners right from the start. After all, the game has been created by the Illuminati in order to control your mind and make it easier for the Reptilians to invade the Earth.

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3 hours ago, Wuss^Timmy said:

Your argument is the computer has chosen the winner and so deals them best....?
If that is truly your argument .. like really?
And you can tell that person is going to run hot because the computer has chosen them to run hot.. from go...?

Additional unrelated question: Do you have easy access to birth control?


 

Yeas, afraid so. You’ve never noticed this before then, I’m surprised. Pay attention to the one that gets the most winning hands in that game, then see that they are still sitting there right at the very end. It’s not because they keep bluffing too. Sorry that you find this untrue but when you see this happen so many times, like myself,  it gets frustrating.

As to your last question.. like really? 

Edited by Pazzie

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Yes. How odd it is that the person who wins a tournament is the one who wins the most hands. It's so obvious!  How could we all have missed it?

On an unrelated note, I have to see my doctor now. I sprained my eye because I rolled it so hard.....

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I find that you can guess the person right near the start of each tournament who will win. If it was for real in a casino say, this wouldn’t be the case. Doesn’t feel realistic enough. That’s my opinion. 

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32 minutes ago, Pazzie said:

I find that you can guess the person right near the start of each tournament who will win. If it was for real in a casino say, this wouldn’t be the case. Doesn’t feel realistic enough. That’s my opinion. 

Your entitled to your opinion.  It's just that every newbie to the forum is appalled that they don't win as often as the think they should, and attacks some aspect of the game.

My experience has proven to me that I must adjust my style to combat the style of the other players.  

Many, many times, I've remained the short stack for most of the game, only to finish 1st or 2nd.  I've been blown out of the game before the BB reaches 600,  I've folded with what would become the winning hand so man times I've lost count, victim of a bluff.

Bottom line, its not PP, its how you play PP 

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36 minutes ago, Farmer John40 said:

My experience has proven to me that I must adjust my style to combat the style of the other players.  

Many, many times, I've remained the short stack for most of the game, only to finish 1st or 2nd.  I've been blown out of the game before the BB reaches 600,  I've folded with what would become the winning hand so man times I've lost count, victim of a bluff.

Bottom line, its not PP, its how you play PP 

Exactly.

Edited by DaWiz_

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I've been hosting tournaments for 2 months now and, ironically, my regulars never complain about the card generator.

I guess things are different when you have a table of players who are playing more strategically and playing good hands.

Edited by DaWiz_
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23 hours ago, Pazzie said:

Yeas, afraid so. You’ve never noticed this before then, I’m surprised. Pay attention to the one that gets the most winning hands in that game, then see that they are still sitting there right at the very end. It’s not because they keep bluffing too. Sorry that you find this untrue but when you see this happen so many times, like myself,  it gets frustrating.

Have you ever noticed that even though there are literally thousands of people participating in all top pro poker tournaments every year, you always see the same faces in the finals? Why do you think that is? Is the game rigged to favor them?

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