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[I typed this on my phone] It's a ranked game. I got 1st place in my last 2 matches. Can I make it 3 in a row? Maybe, just maybe. The game starts. After a few hands are played, I notice a guy has been raising wildly every chance he gets. The other players seem afraid to challenge him, not me though. The next hand is dealt. Pocket Jacks. Oh, yes I've been waiting for a good hand. I call the big blind. "Ok, lets hope this guy doesn't raise," I thought. He raises 2k. "Ah, shit, what's with this guy?" All the other players fold. It's my turn now. I've got a 8k stack, the maniac, 20k. Thoughts raced through my head. "Maybe if I go all-in, he will fold. He might be bluffing. Maybe he isn't a maniac. Maybe he's a loose-aggressive player. Loose-aggressives know when to fold, right?." After 10 seconds of thinking, I make a decision. I go all-in. What does the maniac do? He goes all-in too. We show our hands. He has a 5 9 suited hearts. I have pocket jacks. "Oh, I have to win this," I thought.  The flop comes, and a 5 appears. I get nervous. "No he isn't going to get a three of a kind," I thought, "He just isn't." The turn comes. It's an 8. "Ok, I think I'm safe now." The river comes. It's another 5. Boom. I get 5th place in the tournament and I lose 32 ranked points. Thats my story. Thank you whoever made this game. :)

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Yes, poker sucks especially when clods like that get lucky.   Personally, I hate JJ. I'd almost rather have 22. 

In the other hand, it warms the cockles if my heart when (as happened last night) I cleaned out some fool who shoved pre-flop with 8-5 off. 

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10 hours ago, RentedCalmness said:

[I typed this on my phone] It's a ranked game. I got 1st place in my last 2 matches. Can I make it 3 in a row? Maybe, just maybe. The game starts. After a few hands are played, I notice a guy has been raising wildly every chance he gets. The other players seem afraid to challenge him, not me though. The next hand is dealt. Pocket Jacks. Oh, yes I've been waiting for a good hand. I call the big blind. "Ok, lets hope this guy doesn't raise," I thought. He raises 2k. "Ah, shit, what's with this guy?" All the other players fold. It's my turn now. I've got a 8k stack, the maniac, 20k. Thoughts raced through my head. "Maybe if I go all-in, he will fold. He might be bluffing. Maybe he isn't a maniac. Maybe he's a loose-aggressive player. Loose-aggressives know when to fold, right?." After 10 seconds of thinking, I make a decision. I go all-in. What does the maniac do? He goes all-in too. We show our hands. He has a 5 9 suited hearts. I have pocket jacks. "Oh, I have to win this," I thought.  The flop comes, and a 5 appears. I get nervous. "No he isn't going to get a three of a kind," I thought, "He just isn't." The turn comes. It's an 8. "Ok, I think I'm safe now." The river comes. It's another 5. Boom. I get 5th place in the tournament and I lose 32 ranked points. Thats my story. Thank you whoever made this game. :)

 

7 hours ago, Hecubus912 said:

Yes, poker sucks especially when clods like that get lucky.   Personally, I hate JJ. I'd almost rather have 22. 

In the other hand, it warms the cockles if my heart when (as happened last night) I cleaned out some fool who shoved pre-flop with 8-5 off. 

You guys are worse than the clowns who through money in with fook all in there hand, your boring type of play, waiting for a pocket pair or a big hand before you will play.

I try & play every hand & pay the blind just to see what comes out on the flop, can't be arsed with players who just sit back & wait for what they think are really good cards, I've seen players knocked out with AK where the other players will through in an 83 & the flop is kind with either an 8 or a 3 or even a couple.

 

get it right up ye...

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I don't always wait for great hands, especially when the blinds are really low. I will often call the blind, if i have a reasonable stack, with 7 8 suited or 8 9 suited. I almost always call if i have a 10 and face card, like a jack or queen. And i  will call the blind with almost every pocket pair. If im short-stacked, i typically play more tight than usual, but if i have a big-stack, i usually am more loose and will play a variety of hands like K 5 suited.

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@Oxbentt, I've played exactly two tournaments with you. You and one other guy essentially took turns pushing all in pre-flop every single hand and got lucky in the first game. The very next game I was in you and the same guy were pulling the same stunt and you were both out by the fourth hand. 

Exciting is playing a strategic game with strategic players. People throwing their chips around with no strategy or tactic beyond hoping their J-5 hits is bingo. Not poker. 

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In all honesty poker is a boring game. Good tables consist of 1 or 2 players chasing a pre-flop raise and the rest folding. In nearly two decades I've never seen anything to the contrary (except in video games.) Nor would I want to.

But it's those moments... those "1 in 1,000" moments where you hit the unbeatable hand against somebody who thinks they got it that makes it all worthwhile. There's not many things in this world that compare to the feeling you get when you hit a quad against someone who has a high full house. Maybe having a child, but have you seen how much those things talk? I mean, c'mon.

And as for Tight/Agressive players, it's a time tested and smart play style that minimizes risk and maximizes reward. They're everyone's worst enemy, including themselves from time to time. But they'll win out in the long run and that's what matters to them. I can't and won't knock them just because I'm on the loose side of the spectrum.

That's my 2 cents anyways.

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44 minutes ago, SevenSideSammy said:

In all honesty poker is a boring game. Good tables consist of 1 or 2 players chasing a pre-flop raise and the rest folding. In nearly two decades I've never seen anything to the contrary (except in video games.) Nor would I want to.

But it's those moments... those "1 in 1,000" moments where you hit the unbeatable hand against somebody who thinks they got it that makes it all worthwhile. There's not many things in this world that compare to the feeling you get when you hit a quad against someone who has a high full house. Maybe having a child, but have you seen how much those things talk? I mean, c'mon.

And as for Tight/Agressive players, it's a time tested and smart play style that minimizes risk and maximizes reward. They're everyone's worst enemy, including themselves from time to time. But they'll win out in the long run and that's what matters to them. I can't and won't knock them just because I'm on the loose side of the spectrum.

That's my 2 cents anyways.

Yea tight-aggressive is one of the most basic, effective playstyles imo. That's what i primarily use

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12 hours ago, Hecubus912 said:

@Oxbentt, I've played exactly two tournaments with you. You and one other guy essentially took turns pushing all in pre-flop every single hand and got lucky in the first game. The very next game I was in you and the same guy were pulling the same stunt and you were both out by the fourth hand. 

Exciting is playing a strategic game with strategic players. People throwing their chips around with no strategy or tactic beyond hoping their J-5 hits is bingo. Not poker. 

They are my chips & I can play as I please, if you don't like how I play then leave the table... @Hecubus912

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Firstly, I agree. They are your chips and you can play as you please. Feel free.  But maybe realize that your style of play actually encourages the "boring wait for good cards" kind of play that you seem so critical of.  Why would I ever call with crap cards when good cards may be right around the corner if I know you're going to shove every hand?

Secondly, you might want to be less critical of other people's style if you're not willing to hear some criticism of your own. 

 

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Something must be done about the "All-in" maniacs.  I understand that poker is all about freedom of choice and that players may choose any play style they like.  I also understand that they may choose to leave a table at any time. 

Having said that, there is a serious problem in Prominence Poker that should be addressed. 

There are too many "All-in" maniacs and they are ruining other people's experience.  I am referring to players who go "All-in" pre-flop on every hand with no regard to their hole cards.  They do lose quite often and it can be fun to fill your chips, but this is not poker.  It causes tables to break up unnecessarily.  It invalidates any strategy on the bully's part.  It's not done in real life.  Yes, I understand that PP isn't real life, but it's more than annoying and I think that it is a huge problem.

I propose a limit on the number of rebuys that a player can have.  It should not be unlimited.  It should not reset if they change tables. In my opinion, it should probably be limited to two rebuys per hour.

Players should be warned after 5 times in a row shoving all of their chips into the pot pre-flop.  I would go further and say that someone who goes "All-in" 10 times in a row should be banned from playing for 24 hours.  This should apply to casual and ranked play.

It's not fair for some bully with the chip lead in a tournament is allowed to bank the second place player because they were playing strategically and survived to make second place.  I have won after being down 47k to 3k in a tournament facing an all-in bully who refused to allow me to see any flops.  I checked many big blinds and they still came over the top every hand.  I nicely asked them to "Please play poker and not go 'All-in" every hand", but they refused.

 

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I've decreased the number of games I play each day for this very reason,  A typical tourney has 3 players going all-in pre=flop by the second hand with crap cards.   Now you have 1 player with 30k plus in chips, who starts going all-in after every river.  The player who folds the most is second.

Cable News is more fun than this!

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You guys need to learn how to counter the all-in players.  It takes a bit of time, but they are pretty easy to knock out of a game.  Usually, you will have 2-3 others that are all-in crazy and they do their little show the first two hands and the table is quickly down to the Top 3 by the first few hands.  It's annoying, but why should PP tell other players how to play poker?  If you don't like it, learn how to play against those people.

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  ^ Yeah. What Jag said.

  You need to adjust your game according to the opponents you're playing against. If they're all-in every hand then just tighten up your range. Chances are you're going to be favored when you're chips are in. If you get beat, you get beat. That's poker.

  Do these all-in "maniac" players bring the game down to a coin flip in these ranked tourneys? Sure. But it's a coin that's weighted more towards your victory than theirs if you know how to play them. Quite frankly, I love these players. Even more so at ring games. Once you pick up a monster, you can basically count on them to have their chips in. They are ATM's. 

  Yes, you're going to lose sometimes. You may even be on a downswing and getting bent over by Uncle Variance. But at the end of the day, if you start with premium hands and suited connectors etc... And you only get involved when the statistics make sense (proper pot odds, equity, potential profit vs loss etc.), you're going to come out ahead.

  Poker ain't about the short game; But the long game. Any jackass can win. Only the wise and disciplined stay winning.

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51 minutes ago, LV_Jag said:

You guys need to learn how to counter the all-in players.  It takes a bit of time, but they are pretty easy to knock out of a game.  Usually, you will have 2-3 others that are all-in crazy and they do their little show the first two hands and the table is quickly down to the Top 3 by the first few hands.  It's annoying, but why should PP tell other players how to play poker?  If you don't like it, learn how to play against those people.

Your right, of course.  I think this style of play is inherent for 5k and below tourneys. 

What I do is win a couple 20k tourneys and then come back to the bingo play of rank tourneys, until frustration sets in again.. 

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25 minutes ago, PsalmC34V22 said:

Quite frankly, I love these players. Even more so at ring games. Once you pick up a monster, you can basically count on them to have their chips in. They are ATM's.

Mhm. Out in the open we all talk about how much we hate these players. That they drag us down to their level. This and that, yadda yadda.

But if they were gone, we'd hate it. Every time they push all they're saying is "Please take my money! I really want you to have it." They're fish. Plain and simple. Even if you gotta fold to them to the point where you're doing oragami, you'll get em eventually. And if one of them gets a monster stack from the others, it's a blessing in disguise.

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8 hours ago, Zoltan6201 said:

 

I propose a limit on the number of rebuys that a player can have.  It should not be unlimited.  It should not reset if they change tables. In my opinion, it should probably be limited to two rebuys per hour.

Players should be warned after 5 times in a row shoving all of their chips into the pot pre-flop.  I would go further and say that someone who goes "All-in" 10 times in a row should be banned from playing for 24 hours.  This should apply to casual and ranked play.

 

As much as I get irritated playing with these kinds of players, I'm not really in favor of either option. For a limit on the number of rebuys, if I get burned by bad beats twice in an hour, even if I'm playing fairly strategically, it means I'm done for an hour.  Seems unfair to punish me for that.  Moreover, it makes it difficult for me to shove pre-flop myself as a counter-move to these clowns if I have to worry that I'll be temporarily barred from a re-buy. 

I don't really play the ring games so it wouldn't effect me.

As for warning players or banning them for going all in pre-flop, I'm very much against it for a few reasons:

1) As someone stated earlier, the chips belong to the player.  They should be allowed to play them as they see fit.  There may be consequences to the all-in every hand strategy such as difficulty finding a game because nobody wants to play with them or simply losing all their chips the first hand or two, but if that's the strategy they want to play, then who are we to argue?

2) There might be times where going all-in 5 times straight might in fact be a legitimate strategy: you're on a good runoff cards, you're short stacked with only one or two blinds left.  You ight not have planned for it, but here you are having gone all-in pre-flop four times in a row, but you can't do it the 5th time while holding AA?

3) If one of these types of players get a stack, they don't HAVE to go all in - they just have to raise enough to put you all in.  Same effect while dodging the penalty you would like to see implemented.

Yeah, this kind of play is vexing.  The best revenge is waiting for good cards and taking their chips.

Edited by Hecubus912

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When you are chip leader why is it an issue if you start bullying the table?? That is surely a good strategy. You have earned your chips to be in front so play as you wish. We all know what it is like when you are low on chips, esp when blinds are high - you only play on good starting hands and if you have more money than others you capitalise on that.

Going back to the original post, as other posters have said, take your time with the maniacs and eventually you will have a hand that is worth the risk (not like me yesterday losing against 3 players all below 1000 costing me over 130 points in total as they kept going all in.....)

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18 hours ago, Hecubus912 said:

As much as I get irritated playing with these kinds of players, I'm not really in favor of either option. For a limit on the number of rebuys, if I get burned by bad beats twice in an hour, even if I'm playing fairly strategically, it means I'm done for an hour. 

You can go to another table with different stakes.

Fine, make it three rebuys per hour.

18 hours ago, Hecubus912 said:

1) As someone stated earlier, the chips belong to the player.  They should be allowed to play them as they see fit.  There may be consequences to the all-in every hand strategy such as difficulty finding a game because nobody wants to play with them or simply losing all their chips the first hand or two, but if that's the strategy they want to play, then who are we to argue?

While it may be a free country and you can burn the flag doesn't mean that you should or that it's pleasant for other people.  You can also harass people and bully them with free will and free speech.  (Not that you are at all. Seriously, that's just an example.) It doesn't mean that it is fair or right.

I would rely on the computer to determine what is a fair legitimate "All-in" wager.  Too many times I see maniacal bullies going "All-in" with 7-2OS or 8-2 OS.   This is bullying in a tournament because the player who probably played conservatively and strategically is at a disadvantage simply because the maniac has gotten lucky and has the chip lead.  If the game software sees someone going AI with crap 5 times in a row, they should get a penalty.  There should be a warning at 3 consecutive "All-ins" to only the player. 

If PP does not want to change that, then there should be some calculation which limits the number of points a high ranked player loses versus an unranked maniacal AI bully.   Play style and correct betting should be considered over some reckless fool in their rankings.

18 hours ago, Hecubus912 said:

2) There might be times where going all-in 5 times straight might in fact be a legitimate strategy: you're on a good runoff cards, you're short stacked with only one or two blinds left.  You ight not have planned for it, but here you are having gone all-in pre-flop four times in a row, but you can't do it the 5th time while holding AA?

Their software knows what your cards are and if they are legitimate AI hands, the penalty will not apply. 

It's not that hard to determine legitimate AI bets.

18 hours ago, Hecubus912 said:

3) If one of these types of players get a stack, they don't HAVE to go all in - they just have to raise enough to put you all in.  Same effect while dodging the penalty you would like to see implemented.

I'd like to see that addressed too.  Exceeding another players chips, or in effect putting them at risk 7 times in a row should incur a penalty unless they were legitimate wagers.

To deny players from seeing ANY flop, especially when they have the Big Blind, is really not poker.  It's not strategic.  It's bullying.

I am only referring to bullies that do that exclusively.  If I am playing against people, I do NOT care if they go AI.  It's when they do it many times in a row like a maniac just because they have a big chip lead.

11 hours ago, AaoD pbarny said:

When you are chip leader why is it an issue if you start bullying the table?? That is surely a good strategy. You have earned your chips to be in front so play as you wish. We all know what it is like when you are low on chips, esp when blinds are high - you only play on good starting hands and if you have more money than others you capitalise on that.

It's bad form and not the intent of poker.  It's supposed to be a strategic game of playing odds and wagering based on possible outcomes an ways that one has of getting a winning hand.  When players go AI, there's very little strategy.  The only reason that it is a strategy at all is because the chips have no value.

No real person would wager real money like that.

Yes, I know that it is just a game, but when people do this, it takes the fun out of it for other players.  

AI wagers are fine. It's when they do it non-stop and act like a maniac.  It happens so often that unranked players do this in ranked tournaments that it simply is not fun to face them.

The bullies can completely prevent their opponent from seeing any additional cards unless they call the AI and put their tournament standing at risk. 

Honestly, I don't really care what people do on casual tables.  It is still a problem, but it's the tournaments and ESPECIALLY the ranked tournaments that really are being abused by unranked players.

I hardly ever get to play against players with a higher rank. 

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  Okay... I think you're all getting a little out of hand now...

  Again... I can understand that being put up against a wreckless opponent can be frustrating.. But......

  What's with this continued discussion proposing software updates and adjustments to penalize players for their play? It's one thing to exploit a game. But all the complaints that I'm seeing here are the same complaints inexperienced players continue to express in live play.

  Poker is a game that has set rules. You abide by them to retain the ability to take your opponents chips. There will always be angle shooters. There will always be a grey area that peope are trying to gain an edge from. In the game of poker your chips become your army. You use them to acquire other people's. The means you go by to accomplish that are up to you.

  Please stop whining over these things. I mean... Honestly I could care less. But the last thing the devs need are headaches or influences to ruin a game that's already great.

  If you don't like the way other people play... Then beat them. Show them the real way to play poker and be successful. Give them an example to learn from. Don't sit and ask the developers to adjust their game. You just need to adjust yours.

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18 hours ago, AaoD pbarny said:

When you are chip leader why is it an issue if you start bullying the table?? That is surely a good strategy. You have earned your chips to be in front so play as you wish. We all know what it is like when you are low on chips, esp when blinds are high - you only play on good starting hands and if you have more money than others you capitalise on that.

It's only an issue if it backfires and gives your opponent a second wind.

Other than that it's a perfectly legitimate strategy. Especially when you're facing tight players in the last leg of a tourney. But in that same breath they can capitalize on it and punish you.

Just gotta feel it out.

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12 hours ago, Zoltan6201 said:

You can go to another table with different stakes.

Fine, make it three rebuys per hour.

 

Why not 4 times then?  Or five? Or in a ring game, why don't you leave the table and play other stakes?  Nobody is forcing anybody to stay at a table with these clowns in ring games.  You just pick up and leave for other pastures.

 

12 hours ago, Zoltan6201 said:

I would rely on the computer to determine what is a fair legitimate "All-in" wager.  Too many times I see maniacal bullies going "All-in" with 7-2OS or 8-2 OS.   This is bullying in a tournament because the player who probably played conservatively and strategically is at a disadvantage simply because the maniac has gotten lucky and has the chip lead.  If the game software sees someone going AI with crap 5 times in a row, they should get a penalty.  There should be a warning at 3 consecutive "All-ins" to only the player. 

It's not that hard to determine legitimate AI bets.

 

Firstly. poker is such a fluid and dynamic game where a strategy that might be good at one point in a game might be terrible at another point.  I know I've shoved late in a game with less than ideal hole cards, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.  Ditto versus different players - an insane bet against one can be a brilliant move against another.  A shove from the button is a whole different kettle of fish from a shove out of position.

If the guys at Pipeworks could design software that could intelligently determine good bets when there are so many variables in the game. they ought to be working for NASA.

Moreover, who is to judge what is legitimate and what isn't?

Besides, poker isn't a card game - its a people game.  Your cards matter far less than your ability to read other people's play.

12 hours ago, Zoltan6201 said:

 

Yes, I know that it is just a game, but when people do this, it takes the fun out of it for other players.  

 

Yeah, you're not entirely wrong, except for when you have the card, it adds extra fun when you call them and take their chips.

What you're asking for would be the same if I played NHL17 on-line and complained that some players constantly shoot the puck from center ice and they should bar those people from playing as a penalty for their bad play. 

Long run, bad play reaps its own rewards.

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On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:57 AM, Hecubus912 said:

Why not 4 times then?  Or five? Or in a ring game, why don't you leave the table and play other stakes?  Nobody is forcing anybody to stay at a table with these clowns in ring games.  You just pick up and leave for other pastures.

 

Firstly. poker is such a fluid and dynamic game where a strategy that might be good at one point in a game might be terrible at another point.  I know I've shoved late in a game with less than ideal hole cards, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.  Ditto versus different players - an insane bet against one can be a brilliant move against another.  A shove from the button is a whole different kettle of fish from a shove out of position.

If the guys at Pipeworks could design software that could intelligently determine good bets when there are so many variables in the game. they ought to be working for NASA.

Moreover, who is to judge what is legitimate and what isn't?

Besides, poker isn't a card game - its a people game.  Your cards matter far less than your ability to read other people's play.

Yeah, you're not entirely wrong, except for when you have the card, it adds extra fun when you call them and take their chips.

What you're asking for would be the same if I played NHL17 on-line and complained that some players constantly shoot the puck from center ice and they should bar those people from playing as a penalty for their bad play. 

Long run, bad play reaps its own rewards.

Why should the whole table be forced to leave for the sake of one misbehaving maniac?

One cannot leave a ranked tournament without incurring a penalty.

I am referring to a maniac who shoves all-in EVERY hand or puts all of your chips at risk EVERY hand in a ranked tournament.  Surely you can see the problem with this?  Certainly this is unfair play?   Yes, it is possible to win.  I have personally done so.  It really removes a lot of strategy and relies simply on odds or getting lucky.  That's not how most successful poker players play.  Would they play at all if they could not see any flop, river or turn cards?

Why not just call it Russian Roulette and not poker at that point?  Let's also load the gun with live ammunition to make it interesting.

The Pipeworks guys can decide what is a legitimate AI hand.  It's not hard. 

http://wizardofodds.com/games/texas-hold-em/

They can choose a cut off of a 9 or 10 score as legitimate starting hands to AI with.   For example,  7-2 is a zero.

It is a people game. Unfortunately (or fortunately) in PP we cannot see their behavior or facial expressions, so a lot of the personal tells are removed from the equation.  If the person was a maniac then you could yell at them and act like a poker brat if you wanted to. 

One can certainly gauge play styles and tendencies, but ALL of this is removed when they behave like an AI maniac.

Your NHL comparison is not quite the same.

I would compare it to blackjack.  Lets say that you and the dealer have their hole cards.  You must bet before they have shown you their hole card. You must continue to choose whether to take new cards without seeing their hole card. 

22 hours ago, DuplexEmperor said:

Personally, I wouldn't want Poker-On-Rails which is what this type of discussion leads to.

It's not at all.  It's attempting to deal with a real problem in ranked tournament play.   Please see above.

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Listen, I'm not claiming it isn't a problem. What I'm saying is that is a problem with out a solution aside from letting nature take it's course. 

If people are going to troll the table this way, there's not much to be done. They don't even have to go all in every hand. I was playing a guy last night who simply bet 1k preflop every hand. When I finally had something to fight back with, an AK, he shoved and I called. Sure enough, he had 6-2 and hit his full house while I hit the K.  Yeah he was a clod but in the end, he got the win.  It sucks, but that's poker. 

The solutions you propose limit bluffing and penalize aggressive play when there are plenty of reasons to play agressivley sometimes. 

Moreover, it does nothing to prevent the play I just described. You don't have to shove every hand when you can just bet 1k every hand.  So at what point do you begin to penalize players for aggressive pre-flop play. If they always raise 2x the blind?  3x? 4x?

As for this behavior in ring games, if everyone picks up and leaves when these kinds if players sit, eventually, they might get the message that nobody wants to play with them. 

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