Cristian

Deck Shuffling Clarification - It doesn't seem random?

389 posts in this topic

Warp    111
15 hours ago, Prodigal Gil said:

A developer...a programmer...a computer programming specialist! Now that has opened up a new can of worms for one claiming to be the expert and not knowing what a dev is as a lingo. Did one get caught red handed. In fact, what language do you know? High or low level language?  Do you know Fortran? How is your . Et? Do you pronounce C# as C Hash? :-)

I know what a "dev" is. I was asking about your strange statement: "Wrap was putting up a decent argument until he revealed he was a dev"

Yes, I'm a computer programmer, and I do it as my payjob (and have been doing so for over 10 years). You are saying that me "revealing" this information (as it had been some kind of secret) somehow lessens by argument. WTF are you talking about? Your logic is completely insane.

You have clearly demonstrated that it's you who doesn't know anything about pseudorandom number generators, how they work, or how the quality of one is measured. Instead, you make these completely strange statements that me "revealing" that I'm a programmer somehow discredits my opinion.

And if you want to know, I program mainly in C++ and Objective-C, in the field of game programming. Not that that has anything to do with this subject.

Quote

I formally give up debating this point of PRNG or any mathermatics with you.

I'll take that as a concession.

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Rotravi    14

i have not read through all 16 pages regarding this topic. 

But i must say that the Poker Algorithm is NOT good in this game.

Do i have a reason for stating this ?  Yes.

I from 2012 til today..play a game (and still play when i'm not at PS4)  called Fresh Deck Poker. (Playstore..Facebook) i also include Zynga poker in this.

These games never have made me suspicious about the cards. While many other free to play Poker Games have.

And the games with REAL money (Pokerstars...888.poker..Nordic Bet)  Can NOT afford to have issues with their games

 

Prominence and Pure Holdem have and is Plagued with strange and frustrating card behaviour.

I have experienced this SO many times. So its not wrong to feel the way many do about this game

Its not about loosing. Its about having experience through many years of playing for real or online  (in my case 20+ years ) And loose because of what one experience in hands over a long time period at Prominence Poker...compared to games where things work like in real life (Fresh Deck..Zynga)

So its not a coincidence that many including me,react out of anger..frustration and wanting the game to be better.

 

 

Edited by Rotravi

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Warp    111
9 hours ago, Rotravi said:

But i must say that the Poker Algorithm is NOT good in this game.

What is "the Poker Algorithm"?

You did not give a single example of how you think it's wrong.

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Rotravi    14

Wrong is what we as players experience at THIS game or Pure Holdem for that matter.

You see...When we play live or at some computer made game that actualy feel Normal,when,if  you loose or have your bad beats,it feels like it'a part of the game.

Then you have the computer made games where we clearly experience and feel things are abnormal.

Compare it to this. When you play live at a Casino or your home game...do you EVER react to why you loose ??.

You would say "it's not my day" or "I got the short end of the stick,time and time again". But you would NEVER blame the cards...

The cards are innocent.

Then you play at a computer generated card randomization game,like Pure Holdem and Prominence Poker and it don't take too long to experience that this is NOT random enough...to put it that way. Like the other day when I had 99  and Flop comes 10 9 6.  The blinds are 1000/500.  I Raise   1000...the player with  QQ   Re-raise me to 3000.   I Hollywood å bit then go All In. Turn..River is QQ . GIving her Quads.  I can't even REMEMBER when that happened to me in any other game last.  

Or at Pure Holdem Master Tournament 2 days ago. I have 760.000 left and get QQ....   I go all inn and this Clown with Suited J5 calls me and flops a house !!??   Just insane.

 

The point is..sure things like that happens in Real life too..but at Prominence and Pure they happen much more frequent. And we as players experience it...Notice it and react to it.

As mentioned several times by me. Fresh Deck Poker that is also a computer randomizer poker game don't have thsee issues.

I've been playing that game for 5 years and things feel like..Normal poker. 

It can not be just coincidence that one game DO play it normal and the other end upp with pages upon pages of arguments back and forth.

And as I also mentioned in another post,many of my PS4 friends with lots of experience playing,like myself...react EXACTLY like i do.

We are not newcomers to the game. We have played for years and we agree that this game as well as Pure Holdem do not work right when it comes to the cards on the table.

It's just the facts. You play with real cards and things feel fine...you play Prominence and you can't trust your skill to help you as long as the game is not good enough programmed.

 

Edited by Rotravi

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Rotravi    14

This just  happened  in 3 hands after each other...20 min ago. Played Ranked Tournament and managed to grind my self up from the gutter.

Then in first picture...short stack goes all in A4 and get called by chipleader 99.  

A4 have 21% to win,before the Flop.  

Flop comes 2KQ...reducing A4 to 11%

Then turn is J...Reducing A4 to a mere 9.5%.

And of course the 10 comes on the River. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second Picture.

And this is the hand after.

All 3 have pairs and after raising preflop. .it ends up All In by all 3..Preflop.

Now i KNOW that I'm not safe..but 55.5% is good enough.

But the 88 gets a flopped house of course.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Third picture.

And the hand directly after the 3-way all inn.

Im all inn for my last 1800 chips, and wayyyy behind,preflop...but of course get superlucky and get there on the river... but didn't help much.

--------------------------------------------------------------

This happened in 3 hands...one after the other,,and notice..the underdog won all 3 times. And this is considered to be normal card behaviour on the table.

I have exoerienced WAY to many "suoerlucky"  Turn..River or River cards at this game.

Those 3 hands are just fractions of what I experience trying to win Ranked Tournaments. So nobody is going to convince me that Prominence is close enough to the real deal.

 

 

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FB_IMG_1501030417634.jpg

FB_IMG_1501030427411.jpg

Edited by Rotravi

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Warp    111
18 hours ago, Rotravi said:

Then you play at a computer generated card randomization game,like Pure Holdem and Prominence Poker and it don't take too long to experience that this is NOT random enough...to put it that way. Like the other day when I had 99  and Flop comes 10 9 6.  The blinds are 1000/500.  I Raise   1000...the player with  QQ   Re-raise me to 3000.   I Hollywood å bit then go All In. Turn..River is QQ . GIving her Quads.  I can't even REMEMBER when that happened to me in any other game last.  

Or at Pure Holdem Master Tournament 2 days ago. I have 760.000 left and get QQ....   I go all inn and this Clown with Suited J5 calls me and flops a house !!??   Just insane.

You seem to have this strange notion that if something has a low probability of happening, if it does happen, that must mean that the system is rigged somehow. It doesn't "feel" right to you, somehow.

Do you know what the chances are of one player getting ace quads, and another player getting a royal flush at the same time? Approximately 1 in 163 million. Yet I can give you links to not just one, but two youtube videos of different situations of this happening in real tournaments.

What you are experiencing is people going all-in with crappy hands and sometimes getting lucky. That's PP for you. It's not a fault of the game. It's a feature of the players. Players in other venues don't act like that (often because they play with real money and don't want to lose it). For each such lucky happenstance, those same players lose a hundred such rounds. You are just remembering the lucky ones and ignoring the hundreds of cases where they actually lose with a crappy hand. Those people are losing their virtual money like mad because they are playing badly, save for that occasional lucky hit when they do hit the jackpot with a crazy all-in. And then other people accuse the game itself of being rigged somehow.

I sometimes call all-ins with very good hands, and sometimes I lose. But most often I win. The proportion of each is probably about right. What I don't do, however, is just remembering the times I lose, the times that that 20 or whatever percent of chance of my opponent winning realizes itself (which does happen) and forgetting all the times that I have won such situations.

You giving individual examples is useless. I can give you examples of astonishingly rare circumstances (even rarer than that quad-aces vs. royal flush), but that means nothing. They happen.

If you want to prove that the system is flawed, you need more data than a half dozen examples.

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Mulligan22    1

I've been playing here  for awhile now and have observed the following.

 

There is something to the thought that there is something to the way this game works. It's not normal from my observation.

 

I am one of those that has to grind and grind for anything.

I can play for over an hour in a tournament and never win a hand. Yet I see the same one or two players consistently win hands with better delt hands.

It's rare that I can pair any card, whether I play the hand or not.

If I do hit it's usually the low pair on the board.

If I get a face cards is a pretty sure bet the cards on the table will be number cards.

If I get number cards you'll see face cars on the table.

If I get suited cards I will be very lucky if one of that suits hits the table.

I see one or two players in every tournament that hit cards regularly.

Bluffing is very hard when you have the worst hand.

On occasion I will get into a winning situation and I get kicked out with an "authentication error".  I will have been in the tournament an hour or more and get knocked out with this and cannot rejoin the tournament.

Yes 

It's differnt with this game from other places I have played.

 

 

Edited by Mulligan22
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Rotravi    14

I agree. 16 pages of discussion should point to there being something not right about the poker algorithm,in this game.

It might be that Pipeline don't see it but we players experience the unnatural behaviour regarding cards on the table.

Instead of ignoring it,Pipeline should maybe look into this and admit that something is not right.

The way it is,it put players of from playing the game by experiencing what happens.....

 

 

Edited by Rotravi

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Warp    111
11 hours ago, Rotravi said:

16 pages of discussion should point to there being something not right about the poker algorithm,in this game.

To this day you have still not explained what this mysterious "poker algorithm" of yours is.

From what I gather, this "algorithm" seems to consist of rules like: "A player with pocket aces should never lose." "No bad beats on the river." "Picture pocket cards should always beat number pocket cards." Anything else? How much must the game be rigged to give you wins, before you are happy?

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Rotravi    14

Ok...I will try to explain.

After through the years playing many online poker games there are some where you while playing them experience that too much abnormal things happen. Like.. too often see players loosing on the River or  bad beats happen way to often to players.

Then again you play games where everything is fine. It's like playing with real cards.

Sites like Unibet...Pokerstars can not and never have issues with abnormal card behaviour.  If they had..they would never have been earning money. Nobody would play there.

Playmoney Games like :  Zynga..Fresh Deck Poker... Don't have issues either. I mentioned at other forum post that I started playing Fresh Deck in 2012...I still play it and the game have NEVER made me wonder if something is abnormal regarding the cards.

You win..you loose and of course have bad beats. But that's a part of normal poker ups and downs.

If you play good..you win way more than you loose.

At PP things DO happen. It's not only me that have pinpointed this. A lot of the  people I played with on Pure Holdem went to PP just because of Pure Holdem having Bad Algorithm..  Then they stopped playing at PP too...for the same reasons.

 

My point is this. A Poker game can have good algorithm or bad. And it shows when you play it on a regular basis.

So when I say I've been playing Fresh Deck Poker for 5 years and never questioned the card behaviour...then there should be something to it.

I really do not care what Pipeline and people working there say about testing 1 million hands.

The game does not play by chanse. Or else they would not have pages upon pages with experienced players telling like it is. They experience and see WAY to many strange things happening,compared to the million hands THEY have played through the years.

Few play at Pure Holdem because of the bad algorithm. And in a few days I will stop playing at PP because of the same reason.

To me it seem that the developers of PH and PP think that nothing needs to be changed,as they fully believe that the game actualy work 100% normal.

I know neither game does....

 

Edited by Rotravi

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Warp    111
12 hours ago, Rotravi said:

Sites like Unibet...Pokerstars can not and never have issues with abnormal card behaviour.  If they had..they would never have been earning money. Nobody would play there.

So at those sites, if you have pocket aces, you never lose on the river?

If that's the case, then I'd say those sites are rigged.

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Rotravi    14

Warped..No matter what I say or tell,you won't understand.

I think playing poker for close to 25 Years should make me able to spot a good computer made poker game from another.

 

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Warp    111
On 1/25/2017 at 0:48 AM, ClearConscious said:

The RNGs are instances of .Net System.Random.

All other discussion in this thread aside, is there a reason why a higher-quality PRNG isn't being used, such as the Mersenne Twister? I'm sure that a good implementation for the language you are using is readily available. (If it's C++, it's even in the standard library). This would put aside for once and all whether the PRNG is of enough quality or not. I don't think relying on System.Random is such a good idea. And switching to a more high-quality PRNG ought to be a relatively simple change.

(And while you are at it, why not simplify the implementation of deck shuffling? A common, and good, wisdom in computing science is that when you try to "improve" a PRNG by adding your own logic to it, more often than not you'll just end up making it worse. The technical reason for this is that achieving high quality in random number generation is quite advanced and meticulous mathematics, and messing up the implementation can very easily just lower the quality, when you don't know what you are doing. Patterns may be introduced that weren't there before. Just use the good old Fisher-Yates shuffle, with that high-quality PRNG.)

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Warp    111
On 8/13/2017 at 11:39 AM, Warp said:

All other discussion in this thread aside, is there a reason why a higher-quality PRNG isn't being used, such as the Mersenne Twister? I'm sure that a good implementation for the language you are using is readily available. (If it's C++, it's even in the standard library). This would put aside for once and all whether the PRNG is of enough quality or not. I don't think relying on System.Random is such a good idea. And switching to a more high-quality PRNG ought to be a relatively simple change.

It would be really nice to get some kind of response to this.

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