Cristian

Deck Shuffling Clarification - It doesn't seem random?

389 posts in this topic

Cristian    4

During my career as a poker player of 10+ years(5+ years as a semi-professional), playing on many platforms with different card shuffling methods and live poker, I am pretty sure your code for card shuffling and dealing is not random whatsoever. I've played around 40hours total (on 2 accounts, mostly heads-up) on your platform and during this time I mostly saw bad beats, turn-around rivers and many situations like this repeating themselves, being at both ends of the story. I am not saying this is bad, but it's gonna make many players quit the game in the future, because you can lose/win your stack easily.

One good example is my last hand: https://youtu.be/p3kEUzURclI

In my BB, 2 players call and I check with Q4 off, no reason to raise pre-flp, since it's a really bad hand to begin with. Flop comes 4 7 7 (having 2 pair and a decent kicker, while there was a flush and straight draw possible on board, I decide to bet to protect my hand), I bet and 2 players call. Turn comes another 4, which gives me another 4. I have a full house and the only 2 hands that beat me are pocket 7 or 7x. I decide to bet again, around half the pot and both players call again. Turn is a 5, completing a possible straight. Now there are only 3 hands that beat me: 55, 77, 7x. I decide to bet again, around  75% of the pot (standard value-bet), I get 1 fold and the other playes re-raises all in. I immediatly put him on a 7 (even before the turn I knew someone might have a 7, since I got called in 2 spots on a meh board), but for the sake of the video and for this topic, I decided to call even though I knew I was beat. What tilted me is not that he had a 7, he also had a 4. Props to the guy, except for re-raising all in, he played the hand perfectly (you should make a smaller raise there, around 3x).

I know I'm probably not the best poker player in the world, but I am not bad either, since I make a living playing live poker. I don't normally get tilted or mad, because I know what it takes to play poker, I know when I made a good/bad play even before I make it, I pretty much decide that I'm ok with my decission (good or bad) before I do it. That's the mentality you should have in any hand, trust your instincts and reads.

Anyways, enough talking about me and let's talk about your software. I know for you it's a business and you probably want to make money, mostly because you want players to buy chips, but you should probably rethink how you want that. You need your players to be having fun while they lose money, not be mad all the time. Take it as an advice, a constructive critic.

Also, the animations are too long. They are fun and nice in the beginning, but in the long-run are annoying because you spend more time looking at the guy going all in, than playing the match (talking about heads-up).

Anyways, it's a fun game overall and I wish you best of luck in the future.

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Farmer John40    149

It is absolutely, totally impossible for a computer to do anything random! 

Computers move from instruction to instruction because each instruction has the address of the next instruction as part of each command, a logical sequence is followed.  This is why online gambling is illegal in the US, and why lottery numbers are selected by hand. 

Remember that the next time you play the video games in a casino. 

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Squid    132

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I've played a lot of hands on this game and I see the card generator as fair.  I think what influences a lot of the action is the players.  Lots of players are just beginning to play holdem or haven't played long.  When you bunch them together with a lot of family pots you see weird stuff happens.  But what's influencing this action is more player decisions than any programming.

That said there will be bad beats, on this game and any other online site and even live play.  I think all one can do is just keep playing well, at some point the variance evens out and you will be winning. Out of all the things to tweak in house, I think the card generator is one thing to be left alone.  I think it would cause more issues than solve.

But yes the card generator topic has been around for as long as online poker has been around.

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HyricanDR    145

I agree that the card generation is p...poor in terms of soooo many things. In my game every 6th ->flop<- comes paired (8 6 6) every 6th consecutive (3 4 5, 3 4 6, etc. So not exactly consecutive but possible straight flops. U get what i mean. And naturally if u flop the straight it will keep going like that to give callers the win. 3 4 5 flop u got 6 7? Dont go all out, the 7 8 will follow and why wouldnt the river be a 6 huh? Unlikely? Not here) or every 6th suited (spade spade spade). I play headsup A Q all in, nmy flips Q Q flop x Q x. And you thought theres only four in the deck, or that such strong hands were rare.

Without looking up the odds in reality, i think 50% coming down to build monsters right from the getgo and the unspectular 6 spade 9 diamonds K clubs flops being extremely rare is not up to statistical expectations/Variance. U can get it on with just two ppl and still never see highcard wins or middlepair. Its all a matter of perception and opinion unless you keep track of data, but youre not alone saying its off in general. 

That being said, is there a reason to go crazy over the 4 in a 3 man pot? I actually pretty much EXPECT someone to have a 7 in this game. There was no leadout eliminating bad hands, soooooo...

unless i got the flush draw to beat em trips i wouldnt even touch that board. On the turn id throw the flushdraw away as there will be house . Just implement your criticism into your playstyle and be veeeery sceptical. Let others have small pots on dangerous boards and make big pots off their dangerous plays. The man flopped a fullhouse, and u couldnt let go because u hit a pair of 4s?  Im like have it, next board pls. (unless i lead out and had any commitments to the pot)

 

Edited by HyricanDR

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HyricanDR    145

5 6 diamonds, A anything diamonds or 7 x would have my interest maybe A 4, but Q 4... not a whole lot. What do you expect people to have without leadout (not suggesting to leadout often here, ppl call anyways and the boards are crazy, like you said xD)

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HyricanDR    145

Summary: i fully agree with you in all points concerning this game and the real deal. My thoughts about how you "should" play are just input for PP no criticism to your pokerknowledge or reasonable thoughts if u played the situation anywhere else. Be tight, tighter, tightest. And yeah thats especially hard to do when getting upset xD

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rajwarrior    76

The RNG card shuffler program isn't great on this game. It just isn't. Still, it's probably the best I've seen on any of the free to play poker games out there. And it's not rigged, as some love to complain. It awards the bad beats (or awesome wins, depending on which side you're on) equally. If anything, the more knowledgeable you are about poker and Texas hold'em, the worst you probably are at this game. Good players will call/raise when they are supposed to and get sucked out or bad beat. They'll also fold when they are supposed to and (quite often) see what would've been a winning hand if they had stayed in.

A lot of the issue, though is, as Hyrdicandr said, the level of the people playing the game. Most will play almost anything and bet if they have ANYTHING. It still amazes me that you can throw out a 5-6x the blind opening bet and have everyone call you, then throw out a min beat after the flop and 3-4 people fold out. Almost comical. But it's also why you get some many suck outs and bad beats. 

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Cristian    4
5 hours ago, HyricanDR said:

5 6 diamonds, A anything diamonds or 7 x would have my interest maybe A 4, but Q 4... not a whole lot. What do you expect people to have without leadout (not suggesting to leadout often here, ppl call anyways and the boards are crazy, like you said xD)

The high card is irrelevant in that hand. If you have a full house, the kicker doesn't play. The reason for playing Q4 is that I was in the big blind and everyone called.

As I said, my whole reason for calling the river was to show the opponent's hand, because I knew I was beat on the flop, turn and river. I wish I recorded that in the video too. If you want I can record 10 more videos like this, but it's a waste of time.

 

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HyricanDR    145

I understand all that dont worry. I wasnt refering to the house, what I said (or tried to say) was ->the flop<- would only interest me if... Also didn't mean to criticise your play, just said how i see it specifically here on PP in case you stay around ;)

i need no footage, i erase 300 gb from the ps4 on daily base (theres like 100 videos sitting xD). its a lot of BS. Yet again lost 5 tables in a row like this: leadout, 1 caller, hilarious will happen, because what else (said caller has pocket kings, diamond included, off i go):

 

 

Prominence Poker_20170122033407_2.jpg

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HyricanDR    145

Feels so much better when u are ace high, and have the straight flush draw on top breaking their possible ones. then again, they probably have 4 5 dunt they

 

Prominence Poker_20161219214712.jpg

Edited by HyricanDR

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HyricanDR    145
Just now, HyricanDR said:

the worst badbeat (or best, depends on the pov) however is in my profile pic. enemy goes all in A 10, and since all ins here dont mean much i call A 10. royal flushed away (ive had 2 in 20 000 hands, been beat by 2, and seen half a dozen i wasnt involved in already. in livepoker, ive only had 1 so far :( ) xD

 

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Warp    111

This one was just epic. The other guy had a 555AA full house. He went all in. I called. Man, did he get a nasty surprise on showdown.

Prominence Poker Full House vs. Fuller House.jpg

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HyricanDR    145

That has been beat to death. The card generation isnt rigged and they have no incentive to do so as it would drive players away and hurt the product/business. What else would u expect to hear. Its just sketchy and more bubblesort than rng xD

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Zanatoo    117

 

On 1/21/2017 at 5:47 PM, Cristian said:

You need your players to be having fun while they lose money.

^^ Funniest thing I've read today. 

 

You had Q4, he had 74 and the flop came 774. You were massively behind the whole way. There's no bad beat here as your topic title suggests. A bad beat is when you are massively ahead and your opponent catches a one or two outer to beat you. That's not the case here. You were always way behind. 

Is it because another 4 came that you feel the software must be rigged or because his other hole card was a 4? I don't get it. There were 2 pairs on the board. It's very common for a house to be beaten by a bigger house is this scenario especially when there's 3 or 4 limpers in the hand. There's nothing unusual about this hand whatsoever.  

 

 

PS: I'm surprised that someone with so much live poker experience would require a 4 colour deck. 

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PsalmC34V22    16
55 minutes ago, Zanatoo said:

 

^^ Funniest thing I've read today. 

PS: I'm surprised that someone with so much live poker experience would require a 4 colour deck. 

  Agreed. Nobody with experience would take the time to argue this hand. At the very most... They would catch themselves halfway through writing the post and realize how stupid they sound and they're either quite intoxicated or on tilt.

  However, I'm so thankful that prominence is full of these players. They always know more than you. They're always the most experienced. They're all software RNG engineers. And.... They're always broke. Lol

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Zoltan6201    39

Honestly, I agree with OP.

It is quite remarkable how many hands I have seen where I fold my cards and the flop or total hand completely gives me the best possible hand. I could understand this if it happens 2-3 times in 50, but it seems to happen way more frequently than that.  For example:

Say I get J-5 off-suit.  Many times I'll see JJ5 flop or full house at the river.  If I get 7-2 OS, it will flop 722.  It doesn't seem to be random.  It appears to be an RNG issue. 

Again, it could be coincidence, but it doesn't look like that to me.

I have also seen players under rank 10 get amazingly lucky cards.

I have heard rumors that the card RNG favors players under level 10.

I do not believe that :

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 11:38 AM, Farmer John40 said:

It is absolutely, totally impossible for a computer to do anything random! 

Computers move from instruction to instruction because each instruction has the address of the next instruction as part of each command, a logical sequence is followed.  This is why online gambling is illegal in the US, and why lottery numbers are selected by hand. 

Remember that the next time you play the video games in a casino. 

I refer you to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

Perhaps PP is not using a physical phenomenon which is expected to be random to supplement their RNG calculation?

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HyricanDR    145

To me (i think you refer to OP but ill say it anyway) it is because it happens every frigginsecond hand, and people with "Thats normal, it happens in real poker too!" are a bit sheep or unexperienced  ->here<- on PP.  You get on a table and first three flops? A 2 3 diamonds, A 4 5 spade, A 2 4 diamonds. After that 8 4 4, 10 5 5, 6 4 4. Wow really? Leading out is just pointless because the winner will need a random crap hand. Limping every pot possible if not protected is actually awesome. And no it doesnt happen at that frequency elsewhere, it really doesnt

If the only hand in headsup you get to slowpoker between shoving and folding ends up J 9 v J 8 and the board comes J 8 J 9 x? Lmao. U lead out suits, get one caller, flop jack high flush  with A Q on board, naturall they keep coming, caller has king the only card to beat u? And as far as experience goes, i checked it all the time, betting came from him and i knew he had it (i got chips behind till river as u can see).  It just made me "yea who cares f this...".  And look the last 3 tables, there have been 5 times paired eights on the board each of those tables (and a 3rd in hand). The rng is was so trippin, after the one board x 8 x 8 x, i got 3 8 and friggin raised it. Was not disappointed the least. Next hand sb else gets pocket 8s. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Also i often think i know what the agressor of the last board had. 3 c 4 c Q d board massively raised all fold he doesnt show. Next hand i get A Q c just thinking "yeah that i would have bet, too, nh u got pal". If it were sometimes happening, sure ok. But at the given frquency, bad RNG is simply fit

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HyricanDR    145

And no im hardly broke. I make 200k (not much if u play 1 mio ringgames i guess) in 3 days of 5k tournaments (Thats different. We are simply talking +40 buyins for measure) , win above 50%. Why provoke like that in the first place? Cant keep it civil?

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ClearConscious    359

We ran a shuffle test on our deck. Here are the results after 2 billion hands:

  Mathematical Probability % of Hands % Difference
High Card 17.4119 % 17.4110 % 0.01 %
Pair 43.8225 % 43.8210 % 0.00 %
Two Pair 23.4955 % 23.4969 % 0.01 %
Three of a Kind 4.8299 % 4.8307 % 0.02 %
Straight 4.6194 % 4.6200 % 0.01 %
Flush 3.0255 % 3.0244 % 0.04 %
Full House 2.5961 % 2.5967 % 0.02 %
Four of a Kind 0.1681 % 0.1682 % 0.08 %
Straight Flush 0.0279 % 0.0279 % 0.22 %
Royal Flush 0.0032 % 0.0032 % 0.03 %
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SevenSideSammy    286

The only "quirky" thing I notice with this algorithm is repeating pockets. For example, getting pocket 10's and then seeing a person get 'em  the very next hand.

But even then it's not the shuffle, it's me picking up on patterns that are really spread out and ignoring all the in-between.

Oh the joys of the human mind.

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